My new Bravo

[donkaye]

Dave, I dont run lean of peak and I cannot remember ever getting to 1700 on the TIT. It typically peaks out at around 1580 to 1600 at that setting(30/24). However I typically don't have an opportunity to get up to 17 or 18k because most of my flights are between Atlanta and st Augustine so the distance doesn't warrant it. Most of my flying is between 8 and 13k, but I am looking forward to some upcoming planned trips to experience the higher altitudes and the performance and operating numbers where I know the Bravo is most efficient. Perhaps the delta as to what we have observed is due to the thinner air at the altitudes you speak of(?).

Just out of curiosity what is the %power at your settings. It is my understanding that 30/24 is around 65-70%. I will try your settings when I get my plane back from the avionics shop to see what happens.

Frank

 

Your understanding is not correct.  30/24 is about 78% power.  53 is the key number and 3 of any combination of units of MP and RPM is about 10% power.

[donkaye]

Don't feel embarrassed to use two hands on landing flare.

 

Don't try touch-and-goes - only full-stops.

 

On go-around when (not if;  heh-heh) you porpoise during a, ahem, fouled-up landing attempt, don't apply full power, if you can help it. Use about 2/3 of the throttle travel - then milk the flaps up some, let the bird accelerate some, then work the flaps up the rest of the way and apply the rest of the power. Then you can think about pulling the gear up. If you instead apply full power, you're going to be a-holes & elbows trying to keep the nose down and keeping the plane pointed forward.

 

I disagree with your method of going around.  You run the risk of not clearing an obstacle with that sluggish procedure.

 

 From the M20A POH:

 

4. Release the brakes and allow the aircraft to accelerate to 60 MPH.

5. Upon reaching 60 MPH extend full flaps and simultaneously add sufficient back elevator pressure to pull the aircraft smoothly from the ground.

6.  When airborne, retract the gear.

7. For maximum angle of climb to clear an obstacle, use one notch of flaps and climb at-----

 

My procedure applicable to the Bravo differs from the POH and is based on the above and comes from 22 years of extensive Bravo experience.  If you choose to use the method described in the POH, good luck.  You run a greater risk of loss of control due to p-factor and torque in my opinion due to the pitch up moment on flap retraction from full flaps and torque on engine run up.

 

My method is:

 

1. Power up smoothly to full power and begin trimming down with the electric trim.

2. Pitch up to about 8° while continuing to trim down.

3. At 50 feet agl or not able to land on the remaining runway, gear up. (The drag reduction is close to that from full flap to approach flap.  There is now no large pitch up forces on the yoke, as is possible using the POH method.)

4. Milk flaps to approach flap position or go to the approach flap position on the new Bravos when neutral force on the yoke.

5. At 300 feet agl balance of the flaps up.

 

The fact is that, like the balloon technique used on the M20A, the Bravo will climb out of ground effect very well and raising the gear first produces no pitch up moment as may result in the POH method if not aggressively trimming down.

 

Try each method, then choose which you feel most comfortable.  Please no comments about not following the POH.  If you want to follow it, by all means do it.  If you want a smoother go around then use the above.

[Bravoman]

Your understanding is not correct.  30/24 is about 78% power.  53 is the key number and 3 of any combination of units of MP and RPM is about 10% power.

Don, what do you mean by that? In other words, how are you arriving at 53?

Thanks, Frank

[FlyDave]

Bravoman,

 

The key numbers are derived from the MAP + RPM/100.

• 31" MAP + 2,200 RPM/100  (31+22) =  a key number of 53. A key number of 53 indicates 75% HP
• 26" MAP + 2,400 RPM/100  (26+24) = a key number of 50. A key number of 50 indicates 65% HP
• 23" MAP + 2,400 RPM/100  (23+24) = a key number of 47. A key number of 47 indicates 55% HP

Whatever combination you use to get to 53, 50 or 47 is supposed to equate to the power settings listed above.

But I got to thinking about % HP and the key numbers. Isn't FF a factor in % power as well? Couldn't a key number of 53 (presumably 75% power) be 80% or 70% simply by enriching or leaning the mixture at the same MAP and RPM setting?

Anyone, anyone?

 

Dave

[Bravoman]

Dave , thanks--I got it now. I am assuming these figures are largely derived from the POH or no?

Frank

[FlyDave]

Dave , thanks--I got it now. I am assuming these figures are largely derived from the POH or no?

Frank

 

Good question - I'm not sure.

Don?

[carusoam]

Dave,

The challenge of using FF for determining %HP...

It is really great when running LOP. It is a direct relationship. More FF = more HP.

When running ROP, all the excess FF goes to cooling and is wasted as far as power is concerned.

The calculation gets a bit more complicated to handle the 100dF = X gph...

There is a document that provides the source of these magic numbers and a presentation that explains them all.

Funny to see this come up in such a timely manner. The PPP training prints this document out and hands it out at their training. It is highly recommended.

MP is a very similar measurement to FF. It is a technical measurement of air flow in a constant geometry.

We can measure power by measuring the limited substance in the chemical equation.

ROP... Air is the limited substance. Use the air flow or MP for best accuracy.

LOP... 100LL is the limited substance. Use the FF for best accuracy.

At peak EGT, they both measure power equally well.

I used 100LL in place of the word fuel, because it may confuse somebody because air and gas, together fuel the fire....

Best regards,

-a-

[FlyDave]

What's LOP?

 

Just kidding (but I do fly a non LOP'able airplane).

Thanks for the clarification Aaron!

[Jimmyred]

I am back from Redmond and it was very busy. On the 28th I flew up and met with Craig Smith and did the paperwork and checked out the plane and log books. Everything seemed in order and I started going over the manuals.

When Don flew up in his Bravo we got right into flying! It started out with a video on his landing procedures and how the Bravo operated. I knew right away that I had the right instructor since Don explained exactly what needed to be done and how we where going to accomplish them. It seemed like we did more takeoffs and landings in three days than I ever did with any other instructor. Most of the time was spent at Redmond but we also went to Bend and Prinville.

I also had to do a security check with the airport before I could get my hanger and we had to fit that in. The alternator field switch broke and we had to workout getting another one and somehow get some lunch. Luckily Applebees is just down the road from the airport. By the end of the day we would have a quick dinner and I would go back and and I would do the wings classes so I could finish my flight review before Don would have to leave.

At the end we did a cross country to Klamath Falls and that made all the hard work worth it. Flying the Bravo at 16,000 feet with the autopilot on and that engine purring away, looking out over southern Oregon I knew I had made the right choice! Oh, did I mention that the XM radio hadn't been cancelled yet so we had music too.

When Don left I had my flight review done and I had one day left and I didn't want to waste it. It started by going to Butler and finding out that the new alt field switch had come in so Geoff started putting that in while the line guys filled the plane with oxygen. Then I was off and I did three go arounds then five takeoffs and landings at Redmond then five at Bend. I promised that I would call Don on how it was going, the phone went to message and I gave him a report on how it went so far.

Then I fueled up and took off for Dillion, MT. I left the pattern and put the autopilot on and climbed to 17,500". I intentionally put in a lot of legs to see how the GPS worked with the autopilot. Center said I could go direct but I was loving that it was doing all the work! I did a couple climbing and decending 360s just to watch the autopilot do its thing. Of course I took pictures with my oxygen on while cruising at a true airspeed of 197 kts. As I decended into Dillion I activated the approach and it took me all the way down to 200 feet!

I fueled up and took off just as the sun set and I started figuring out all the lighting options. The bravo really is a personal airliner and you can light it up like one. On the way back I kind of felt like I was cheating, in my E all the time was taken up with navagating and maintaining altitude and cross referancing VORs. Now I could just push some buttons and it would do it for me. I thought that I need to really work so that I know every part of this system and really think about all that can go wrong with it and not be lulled into thinking that all the technology has made flying safe because it still only does what the pilot tells it to do.

I decended into Redmond and did three takeoffs and landings so I am night current also. Then I put her into her new hanger and walked to the other side of the airport and got the car.

[Jimmyred]

Well it has been awhile but I haven't been resting. I have signed up at Fullerton's AFI sim club, one month unlimited use of their g-1000 simulator for $400, and have been using it almost every day. I don't think you can beat the price, I have about 50 hours so far. I have finished my IPC and am ready to go up to Redmond and get another instructor to do real IFR in Oregons perfect rainy/snowy weather!

I want to get training using the TKS and stormscope in real weather. I am looking to install some cameras to document the ice protection since I haven't seen a lot of use in real weather on youtube or training videos. I will still be using the sim to practice emergency procedures until I can use the back up as easy as the primary. I found it hard not to keep looking at the primary FD even though there were big x's on the screen.

I am also getting my 4x4 van rewired and tow my car with it up to La Pine, where I have a cabin. The cabin needs work, too! I can then fly commercial to Redmond, take my Honda 185 to La Pine and have my van to use and stay at the cabin.

That puts me up to date until I go back to Oregon.

[JohnB]

Great Jimmy! It's sounds like you're doing everything perfectly for your type of flying, you certainly picked the right transition instructor! Happy flying and I look forward to meeting you and your M at a gathering in the future!

[FoxMike]

Jimmy,

You can go to the trouble of putting cameras on the plane or you can fly in  some ice and land at an airport that is below freezing.  I did that with my Bravo and found ice on the landing light lenses and the prop spinner.  Amazingly the antennas, wing tips, and belly were ice free.  You may notice areas of the wing that will build ice because of damaged TKS panels or leaks in the system.  I found leaks in my Bravo after several hundred hours and subsequently torqued and safety wired all the nuts that secure the tubing. It is a good idea to check out the system and make sure it is working properly.  TKS is a good system if properly maintained.

[thinwing]

also in moderate icing conditions ,buildup occurs at the cowling inlets...than flys off unexpectably throwing occasional wads at the windshield....kinda like when it comes off the hood of your car...main thing is make sure your system is primed (about 5 min with low pressure warning flashing) before entering an icy looking cloud.Make sure pitot heat is on prior to any cloud penetration...90 min duration is about what you can expect.I found max rate removes any buildup than switch to low...icing always starts at the stall triggers first ,and last to come off.Keep at least a couple gals of tksb on board in summer time and prime sytem monthly to keep foam membrane behind tks panels from completely drying out in summer..regards kpc

[Jimmyred]

I just got back from Redmond and I had a productive trip. I tried to download the data for the two GNS 430s the first night but one card wasn't recognized. The next morning I went by Bend airport and bought 15 gallons of TKS fluid and was able to download the data and we determined that the Jeppesen card reader was defective. I will call for a replacement after the holidays. Hopefully they will send me a free replacement or the updated reader without a hassle.

I then went to the airport and installed the data cards, signed up for XM weather and radio and hooked up the gopro, and installed a couple of foldable cup holders on the lower panel.

I then decided to fly to Skagit regional in Northern Washington. The weather had been great so far. Rain, drizzle and low ceilings. I filed and picked up my clearance. On departure the ceiling was 2000 overcast. I got above the weather at 9000 feet and leveled at 14000. I was cleared direct kichikan, which was the first solo certified gps direct, that I have had. I look forward to many more.

I had topped off the tanks and oxygen so that I could use my fuel computer to have accurate fuel calcs in the long range tanks for tomorrows trip with the instructor and the oxygen to test out the flight levels.

I then requested flight level 20, which was incorrect, since it's stated FL 200. This is why I like training flights to pick up how the system works and get a better understanding when it is less critical. By the time I made it to FL 200 the clouds had cleared and the view was awesome. I went to mask and titrated my oxygen to 95%. The flow was at 15000. I had been using much more oxygen than I needed. The pulse ox will save me a lot of Os. The price is only $32 for a Fill up but it is a hassle. I will probably get my own system for convenance.

On my decent I did go imc but the airport was visual which is fine since I will be spending plenty of time with the instructor to improve my approaches. My landing was perfect if I say so myself and I have the video to prove it.

By the time I filed my flight plan it was dark and I got my clearance through flight service and was as filed. About half way back I went IMC and turned on the TKS when some very light rime started forming. The normal and maximum started going yellow/red and the overpressure went on. I turned off the system and then turned it back on and it did the same thing. I used a pen to reset it with no change. I turned the system off and left it off since the ice had stopped forming.

I had primed the system when I preflighted but maybe I sould have reprimed after takeoff.

At twenty miles I had Redmond in sight and cancelled but put the approach in the autopilot and started it. While turning off the pitot heat I accidentally turned off the autotrim and the autopilot turned off and the trim light went wild. I turned the auto trim back on but the trim light was going wild. I remembered that the autopilot needed to be tested before use so I pressed the test and after the test it engaged.

As I got close to the airport I turned off the autopilot and used the electric trim that didn't seemed to work. I turned that off but found the trim to be stuck. I stopped using the trim so that I didn't break anything, remembering the airline that broke the jackscrew. I determined that I had enough travel and made a good landing.

On taxi to the hanger I knew that it would be unlikely that I would be going with the instructor tomorrow.

The next morning I took off all the side panels, including the rear pivot cover. I couldn't see anything out of the ordinary although the back boot looked a little wrapped up but couldn't tell for sure. The jack screw looked fine and I called Eldon over in Prineville. He had tuned up the mixture and repaired my electric fuel pump. Luckily for me he was working on Saturday.

I called Professional Air and cancelled for both days.

I flew over to Prineville without trimming. It was a good lesson in using power to keep the nose down when adding power the pressure to keep the nose down increased significantly. So I used only enough power to keep a adequate climb.

When entering the pattern the force made it hard to make good turns. So I exited the patter climbed above the pattern so that I could make a decending pattern this took off the need to push down and increased control. I remembered reading how a run away trim could exert up to 40 pounds of force. This really brought it home and I have been playing out different scenario's of using power in a stuck up or down trim. Good stuff!

I met Eldon and his wife for the first time and found them to be great people. He will be my mechanic for all the time in Redmond! We put the plane in the hanger and closed the doors and turned on the heat it was great.

We took off the belly panels and side panels, I asked as many question as possible without being annoying. Unfortunately, I saw the electric gear motor but didn't think to look for the clutch. Anyway, we tried turning the rods by hand then disconnected parts until we narrowed it down to the bearing under the electric trim motor. We lubricated it and that solved the problem. It was better than when I got it and now know the lubrication points of the trim system. By the time that we where done it was raining and I flew back to Redmond.

Since the problem was solved I rescheduled with Pro Air for tomorrow.

The next morning I flew to Bend and Shawn and I decided to fly to Eugene. I used the excel program to do the weight and balance calculated that we could carry 65 gallons of fuel for a 47 minute flight. The weather planning was easy icing was a given, just how much and agreed upon exit plans. Once that was done it was time to fuel up and take off.

After take off it was to put it on autopilot, pitot heat and TKS. This time everything worked, but the TKS didn't take all of the ice off the wings. Some areas were clear but other had up to 1/2" even at maximum. It didn't seem like it wasn't keeping up but more like some areas were not getting enough fluid.

With the incident before I knew that I would be calling CAV for suggestion and a new filter. On the decent the controller turned us late and we flew through the localizer and I turned off the autopilot followed the localizer down and broke out at 700'.

I would have to say that I was way behind the airplane following the glideslope was easy with the G600. And the landing on a rainy runway was awesome.

We fueled up and put more tks fluid into the tanks and took off for Bend. They gave us the whole procedure into Bend and the autopilot start the procedure turn only to breakoff and start flying straight to Bend at the last second suspiring both of us.

By the time we turned off the autopilot the turn looked pretty bad. After that I hand flew it and felt more in control and ahead but there is plenty of room for improvement and I look forward to the next training flight.

I flew back to Redmond and the controller cleared me back to my hanger without requesting it and I towelled her down and cleaned her up getting her ready for the next flight when I get back to Redmond.

[Jimmyred]

Didn't know that my plane was on the cover of Flying magazine and I am having the EDM-900 installed.  I will post pictures when finished.

[Tony Armour]

Good reading, sounds like you are having fun :-)

[Mcstealth]

What was the final word on the TKS? Were the membranes dried out to the point they wouldn't flow?

df

[Jimmyred]

No, just had to flow it every week or two.  My plane is in the shop getting the EDM 900 put in.  The shop sent a picture.

[carusoam]

Super nice layout, Jimmy!

Best regards,

-a-

[drstephensugiono]

Love my TLS Bravo....I've had for 22 years!

IMG_0894.MOV

[Jimmyred]

I just got back from Lasar it is great to know that their service in is as great as ever.  I had them put in my new Sandi Quattro and remove all of my vacuum system losing 18 pounds in the process.  They also did some general maintenance and oil change.  I helped with the oil change and will be doing it myself from now.  It is really easy now that the vacuum pump is gone.  Much easier than with my old E model.

[Jimmyred]

[carusoam]

Nice Pirep Jimmy!

Best regards,

-a-

[Jimmyred]

Thanks,

I am done for awhile.  I am going with the Whelen 650 and 500 LED nav/strobes at annual in October.  Who knows how long until paint and interior.   I want to paint the maroon black and leave the original white, save some money.  The interior maybe I can dye the seats black and do the carpet gray.  I would also like to replace the leather trim with carbon fiber trim.

[rocketman]

Welcome Jimmy to MS. Nice to have another Bravo owner chirping in these quarters. I have had my Bravo for over two years and just put a Lycoming rebult engine on this month. See my posts elsewhere for further details. I love your panel. My plane also  has the FIKI TKS system also. Good to have the piece of mind but don't go out and test the limits of this. It is still there to get you out of trouble, not to get you into trouble. Also, try to run the system every month to keep the lines open and flowing. When you pour the TKS fluid into the little inlet on the co-pilot side of the fuselage, this is a two person job, one-half of a person to hold the door open and the 1 1/2 to hold up the very heavy container the fluid comes in. Use a clean filter when pouring it. Don't run it (unless you have to) just before you land at your home airport or you'll be looking at fluid on the floor for a long time.

I have the Aspen Evolution and 430 WAAS, kind of sparce compared to your G600. I'm jealous.

A couple  of other hints that I use is to run the engine at low power settings (like under 1000 RPM) to prevent turbo coking before you shut it down. Also as soon as you shut the engine, get out and pull out the oil dip stick. You will immediately see water moisture coming out of the engine. This is the stuff you don't want to sit around since it causes corrosion and all the harmful things to lifters, lobes, etc. I keep it out until I am ready to leave the hanger, then I connect my home made industrial strength dehumidifier using the top end DeVibliss dehumidifier that is used for painting expensive European cars. This is powered by a commercial grade pump that is used for outdoor ponds. None of the pickle jars and a couple of teaspoons of Silica to prevent corrosion for me. I then hook one end up to the exhaust pipe to soak the cylinders with the exhaust valve open and the other end through the oil dipstick inlet to soak the cylinders with the air intake valves opened. Using this method, I basically soak the engine environment with very very low Relative Humidity air. Does it work? Who knows! It makes me feel like I am doing everything I can for the engine. Kind of like stories everyone has about which oil is the best.

Keep posting questions and concerns. Happy Flying

Ron Dubin