XC Efficiency

[RoboZoom]

Greetings,

 

I'm a 'heavy' military pilot looking into purchasing a private aircraft (or at least a share in one), and I was hoping to get some help in identifying if Mooney would be right for me.  I have >2k hours in heavy multi-engine aircraft, but I only have about 150 hours in GA aircraft, and all of those are in a C-172.  In other words, I'm pretty ignorant about the options open to me.

 

So here are my basic Mooney questions:

 

• Which is the best/most efficient model for a 1,000NM XC with no more than 2 passengers + bags
• How does O2 work in an unpressurized airplane at 20K ft?  I notice the M20's have pretty nice ceilings, is there a separate oxygen system and how hard is that to maintain?
• How safe are Mooney's?
• What should I be asking that I am not?
• Can you do any basic aerobatics in a Mooney?

Ideally cost would be low - under 150k for sure but preferably under 100k.

 

Any thoughts would be great.  Thanks!

[Bob_Belville]

Greetings,

 

I'm a 'heavy' military pilot looking into purchasing a private aircraft (or at least a share in one), and I was hoping to get some help in identifying if Mooney would be right for me.  I have >2k hours in heavy multi-engine aircraft, but I only have about 150 hours in GA aircraft, and all of those are in a C-172.  In other words, I'm pretty ignorant about the options open to me.

 

So here are my basic Mooney questions:

 

• Which is the best/most efficient model for a 1,000NM XC with no more than 2 passengers + bags

Almost any M20 should be able to efficiently do that with one fuel stop. The most economical would be the M20J "201" (or older M20E and M20F with the same power). Many of the older models have been updated with 201 improvements. 

• How does O2 work in an unpressurized airplane at 20K ft?  I notice the M20's have pretty nice ceilings, is there a separate oxygen system and how hard is that to maintain?

@ 20,000 plus you would need a M20K aka "231" or variants. The Turbo Mooneys will probably have factory O2. Portable O2 systems are cheap and dependable. 

• How safe are Mooney's?

About as safe as the pilot! Mooneys are known as extremely strong and as an excellent IFR "platform". They really do not have any bad quirks other than being slick.

• What should I be asking that I am not?

Buying a used plane is complicated and there are lots of components. The condition of the plane is the top of the list. Many folks here will recommend a Pre-purchase Inspection by a Mooney Service Center or a mechanic very familiar with Mooneys. There are a few Mooney specific item to look for. Second would be equipment. Adding a modern panel to a GA bird can easily add $50,000 or more to the cost of the plane. Planes in your budget will not have original equipment that is satisfactory for IFR cross country. Finding a plane already updated will save in the long run. 

• Can you do any basic aerobatics in a Mooney?

Spins are prohibited.

• Ideally cost would be low - under 150k for sure but preferably under 100k.

Fine, well equipped, M20Js and M20Ks can be had for under $100,000. It is still a buyers market. 

 

Any thoughts would be great.  Thanks!

For 1000 nm trips with 2 people plus luggage a Mooney is a great fit. 150k or more on 10 gph or less is very conservative. 

[chrisk]

A few thoughts:

-How many fuel stops are you willing to make for your 1000nm trip? Some Mooney's have that kind of range, others may require a stop. There is considerable difference in fuel tank size. I believe 50 gal on the low side to a bit over 100. Also to go that far with reserves, you probably need to slow down. There is at least one members who flies between Florida and Puerto Rico non stop.

-Next is useful load. Most are between 800 and 1100 lbs. Subtract fuel from this. The 252s tend to have lower useful loads.

-for oxygen, where are you going to fill the plane? I ended up buying a transfill system and lease tanks. So, a portable system might be more convenient and cheaper long term.

-spend the money and get a prepurchase inspection and annual at a shop that specializes in Mooneys (or what ever brand you settle on).

-Get some type specific training from some one who flies a Mooney, maybe an hour. Landing speeds are important, and don't force the plane down. They are very easy to fly, but slippery.

-aerobatics and Mooney do not go together. Do not spin one. Spins are prohibited for a good reason.

[rbridges]

I think your altitude is going to dictate the model.  A 1000NM distance can be done with nearly any mooney.  Even my 180HP C model  can cover that distance with 1 fuel stop, but  you're probably looking at 7 hours of flying time plus time to refuel.  Everything else only gets quicker with the newer models.

[Hank]

Lots of GA planes, including most Mooneys, do very well criss-crossing the country below required oxygen levels. Like mine. I've not yet been west of Cody, WY, and I've made exactly one [training] flight with a portable oxygen tank. I crossed the Appalachians between WV and NC/GA many times, VFR as low as 4500 msl but I really prefer 7500 or better; I've made the same trip as high as 11,000 but the climb rate really suffers as my Mooney is only 180 hp with a carburetor.

 

C and E models are good 2 person XC machines; F & J add interior space to make Seats #3 & 4 more comfortable, plus more baggage. Beyond J is where turbos come in. The more recent ones have built in oxygen systems, while others will have portable systems. Lots of options here.

 

Study up, let us know where you are, come to a fly in, lunch meeting or cookout. Most of us are nice, friendly folks who love to talk planes and flying.

[aaronk25]

M20j is the most efficient and cheapest to maintain at 13k-19k expect 22-23nmpg at 145kts. No o2 but a 24cubic ft 02 bottle can be had for $300 or so.

A 252 turbo is a efficient bird up at 20k but commands 100k for run out engine and 150k for a nice bird, generally. Id love one.

Use a nose cannula upto mid teens then mask from there up.

The 24cu ft bottle gives me 8 hours at 19k with a mask

[Bob_Belville]

In addition to operating cost you will want to factor in the "fixed" cost of owning any airplane. Hanger rent will vary greatly depending upon location, insurance, annual inspection. Together these 3 might be $6-10k before you fly the first hour.

 

Maintenance of a plane might vary greatly year to year, folks here would advise expecting to spend at least 10% of the purchase price in the first year fixing things that break or wear out.  Components on an airplane generally cost several times what they would for an automobile. (Alternators, starters, batteries, pumps, tires brakes, spark plugs..) it will add up.  

 

Reading:

www.lasar.com/sales/buyers-guide.asp

www.ravenware.com/factand/nofic/mooneytrans.html

 

163 Mooneys for sale: includes 34 Js and 39 Ks (Turbos)

www.controller.com/drilldown/modelList.aspx?manu=Mooney

[pinerunner]

I think you're describing an M20J. It's basicly the classic version that most people think of first when talking about Mooneys. I've got an older M20E with the same power but a little shorter and lighter. Its redlined lowner than the J for reasons I've never understood and can be had a bit cheaper.

 

The price range you're describing would get you a nice older J model in great shape with pretty good radios. The only reason I can think of to go with the shorter Mooneys if you can afford a J might be getting out of shorter strips which isn't why most people buy Mooneys.

 

Sounds like you can afford solo ownership but ask yourself if you have the time to fly it that regularly (sitting around isn't good for any airplane).  If not sharing ownership makes sense if only you can find the right partner.

[WardHolbrook]

Greetings,

 

I'm a 'heavy' military pilot looking into purchasing a private aircraft (or at least a share in one), and I was hoping to get some help in identifying if Mooney would be right for me.  I have >2k hours in heavy multi-engine aircraft, but I only have about 150 hours in GA aircraft, and all of those are in a C-172.  In other words, I'm pretty ignorant about the options open to me.

 

So here are my basic Mooney questions:

 

• Which is the best/most efficient model for a 1,000NM XC with no more than 2 passengers + bags
• How does O2 work in an unpressurized airplane at 20K ft?  I notice the M20's have pretty nice ceilings, is there a separate oxygen system and how hard is that to maintain?
• How safe are Mooney's?
• What should I be asking that I am not?
• Can you do any basic aerobatics in a Mooney?

Ideally cost would be low - under 150k for sure but preferably under 100k.

 

Any thoughts would be great.  Thanks!

First off, welcome to the group!

 

I'll add a few thoughts to what has been expressed above...

 

1. For 1000 nm trips you will likely want (or wish you had) one of the turbo-charged long-body airplanes with the known icing option. I don't know what you're flying, but lets assume that it's a turbojet powered transport aircraft. In your world, the higher you fly the better off you usually are. In the world of light piston-powered aircraft, that's not necessarily the case. Typically, it only makes sense to fly high when you've got tailwinds. The penalty for staying low, when battling headwinds is minimal. You will use the O2, but probably not on every flight. Nasal cannulas are an option below FL180, masks must be used higher. There are free online flight planning sites like fltplan.com that you can use to quickly determine the best altitudes and routing for your flight. They've got performance profiles for most any light aircraft. You can go online and work a lot of "what if" scenarios. 

 

2. It's not too expensive to put together a rig to refill your own O2 system. Oxygen is readily available and you do not need to use "Aviators Breathing Oxygen". Anymore, it all comes out of the same tank.

 

3. The biggest issue you're going to have transitioning into something small like a Mooney (Other than the urge to flare 50 feet in the air. ) is not having all of the "switches" and performance that you're used to having when it comes to dealing with weather. In large transport aircraft, we've got a switch or two (or three) that we can use to deal with just about any problem or issue we might encounter - weather or otherwise - during a flight and if that doesn't work, you can always climb and go over the top. Not so in most light general aviation piston-powered aircraft, including Mooneys. In many ways, flying light GA aircraft will be much more demanding when it comes to planning and judgement than what you're flying now. I've got a good friend of mine who is a United Airlines 747 captain. He owns a Cessna T210 and he calls it his ultralight. He has mentioned the change in mindset that he has to make to keep from thinking of his Cessna as a "toy airplane". 

 

4. Light GA aircraft have tremendous capabilities when it comes to personal travel, but they have very distinct limitations limitations, very different from those that you currently have. They are not 24/7 all-weather travel pods, but a prudent pilot will safely be able to go anywhere he wants to go the vast majority of the time.

 

5. The best speed mod you can have on any airplane is long-range tanks - assuming you have the bladder capacity. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by WardHolbrook

[jlunseth]

I have a 231 and I agree with pretty much everything Ward says.  Although I would say that, at least in GA terms, the difference between TAS when staying low, say 3,000, versus TAS up high, is fairly significant.  In my aircraft it is around 25-35 knots depending on what altitudes you compare.  In jet terms that is probably not much, but when you start with a speed of, say, 145 at 3,000 and can raise that to 170 at FL200, it is roughly a 25% improvement.  The climb may be long and not particularly fast, but in clear air you can make up for that during the descent, just tip the nose over and pull off a little MP to make up for the extra ram air.  I have been up to FL240, which is the service ceiling of my particular aircraft.  The Acclaims are FL250 I believe, and the 252's are FL280 although I don't think there are alot of pilots who go to 280.  The wing is fine up there and the aircraft is perfectly happy.  The older models such as the 231 were not particularly well designed for cooling in the high flight levels.  The later model turbos have factory intercoolers and some have dual intercoolers, that really helps with engine cooling.  I have an aftermarket intercooler and it drops the induction temp around 100 dF, which is a big difference and helps the engine.  O2 works fine up there.  I have a built in system and I use a miked mask above FL180, the mask helps reduce O2 usage and keeps you better oxygenated in the higher rare air than a cannula will.  The real kick with the turbo, as Ward said, is getting up in the low 20's with a great tailwind.  I once made it from Peoria to Fredricksburg, MD in under 2 hours, average cruise speed (GS) in my lowly 210HP 231 was 275 kts. and fuel flow ROP was 13.3.

 

I have made quite a number of long trips.  To give an example, I once took a friend to Taos NM.  We were at about 8,000 going out and stopped once, at KSUX, for fuel.  Don't remember the flight time but I am guessing about 6 hours.  We came back at FL210.  We went to Alamosa just to get O2, Alamosa is north north west of Taos.  Then we made it in one hop from Alamosa to KFCM in Minneapolis, caught a great tailwind at the bottom of a very large cyclonic low that we could see a couple hundred miles to the north. 

 

Around the clock, I have gone from KFCM (Minneapolis) to Niagara, Fredricksburg, Asheville, Bahamas three times to three separate destinations, Memphis at least three times, Booneville AR, Ada, Texas, Taos, Denver (Jeffco), Kalispell three times, Williston several times, and many points in between. 

 

I agree on the long body with FIKI TKS.  Don't get tempted by inadvertent TKS.  It is not legal to fly into icing conditions, and costs more to tear out and replace with FIKI, than buying a plane with no TKS at all and equipping that with FIKI.

 

On the panel I would want to see at least one good GPS connected to a BK AP of some kind, and SatWX.  The GDL69A is a great unit and you can listen to 50's music (or whatever you choose) as you cruise, as well as get the weather.  Speedbrakes are useful on exceptional occasions, but not required.  We once came in to Kalispell from the east and had to stay high longer than usual because of convection over the Rockies to the east.  We would up at 11,000 in the pattern, the airport is at about 3,000.  Tower asked what we needed to get down.  I said just give me a long downwind, deployed the speedbrakes, and we were down within the limits of a long pattern.

[carusoam]

Thank you for your service. (US military?)

Is the 1000 mi trip the primary mission?

Or is that once or twice per year?

My thoughts, if you are doing this flight often...

Go with the most modern TC'd plane that matches your budget.

If your SIC is a non-pilot...

Go with a TC'd Long Body (Bravo).

If your budget is allowed to increase. If you need to borrow, the cost of money is at an all time low...

Go with a TN'd Acclaim.

The challenge is you may want to step into GA with one foot. Ownership has it's own challenges.

I started with a C, a decade later moved up to an R. I don't fly for a living. Getting experience takes longer...

Swapping planes is expensive.

Maybe you can define what you want and then go get it.

Where are you located?

The most fun day is visiting a toy store called AAA...

http://allamericanaircraft.com/Default.htm

They have all variations of Mooneys in stock in one place. Use caution, it is easier to fall in love with machinery than it is to pay for it...

Ask as many questions as you can.

Best regards,

-a-

[David Mazer]

For what it's worth, I just flew a non-stop 1050 nm flight from NY to FL with a passenger and bags in my Rocket (a modified M20K variant) at 18,000 ft in 4:21 and used 82 gallons of gas.  I landed with 22 gallons of usable fuel and had the power set at 65%.  I could have easily flown at a higher power setting, used a little more fuel and spent a little less time in the air or reduced the power and reversed that equation.  My plane doesn't have TKS.

 

The list of questions you haven't asked is enormous and you might find a mentor or trusted broker helpful since airplane ownership can require financial fortitude to deal with the unexpected (I'm not sure why I use that term because it really is expected somewhere along the way).

The Mooney is a great XC airplane but there are others, depending on your budget.  The T210 is a great airplane, I've had one, and so is the A36 for comfortable travel but neither are as efficient.  We are partial to Mooneys here  and I think you would be happy with one but I would want to research all options before I made this type of commitment.

[Houman]

For what it's worth, I just flew a non-stop 1050 nm flight from NY to FL with a passenger and bags in my Rocket (a modified M20K variant) at 18,000 ft in 4:21 and used 82 gallons of gas.  I landed with 22 gallons of usable fuel and had the power set at 65%.  I could have easily flown at a higher power setting, used a little more fuel and spent a little less time in the air or reduced the power and reversed that equation.  My plane doesn't have TKS.

 

The list of questions you haven't asked is enormous and you might find a mentor or trusted broker helpful since airplane ownership can require financial fortitude to deal with the unexpected (I'm not sure why I use that term because it really is expected somewhere along the way).

The Mooney is a great XC airplane but there are others, depending on your budget.  The T210 is a great airplane, I've had one, and so is the A36 for comfortable travel but neither are as efficient.  We are partial to Mooneys here  and I think you would be happy with one but I would want to research all options before I made this type of commitment.

David, from my understanding you have the aux tanks or more than the normal 72 gl that a Rocket usually comes with, was that an add on that you had installed or was like that when you bought it, what does it do to your useufll load and max weight.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so feel free to im me personally or respond here !!!

[David Mazer]

I don't know of any Rockets without the aux tanks but I don't know if that means they were added during the conversion or at another time.  The mains hold 40 gal each and the aux 14.5.  Total 109 with 104 usable.  I've seen different total fuel capacity for different Rockets.  I'm not sure what that means with respect to timing or installer.

[IndyTim]

....

First, thank you for your service!  And welcome to MooneySpace.  My son is currently training in T-38s at Columbus AFB.  Nice to meet someone flying heavies.

 

In response to your questions -

• Which is the best/most efficient model for a 1,000NM XC with no more than 2 passengers + bags.  ....   Ideally cost would be low - under 150k for sure but preferably under 100k.

A Mooney is a good choice for this mission, especially since you aren't planning more than 2 passengers.  If you really mean 3 people in the plane, then a 1000 mile leg is a long stretch non-stop.  It's doable, but the chances that none of the three will need a pitstop are very low.  If it's just you, and you've got a water bottle handy, then....

 

But if you want to do this non-stop (and fly faster than 145 kts), the 1000NM range will require an 1150 mile capacity with IFR reserves, so you're looking at either a newer Mooney, which would be over your budget, or one with extended tanks from Monroy.  You can add the tanks if the plane you like doesn't have them, for about $10,000.   http://www.monroyaero.com/lrupgd.html

 

• How does O2 work in an unpressurized airplane at 20K ft?  I notice the M20's have pretty nice ceilings, is there a separate oxygen system and how hard is that to maintain?

My 252 has factory 4-place oxygen.  I use it a lot, since my plane (like all the turbo Mooneys) is most efficient up high.  I've gone to FL230, where I saw TAS of 206 kts on a fuel burn of 10.7 gph.  Lean of peak, obviously, although frequently I fly rich of peak.  Way rich of peak.  

 

I use nasal cannulas up to FL180.  I'm still looking for the right solution above FL180, since a mask is required there.  Aerox makes a miked mask for $462.  

http://aerox.com/product/msk-aem-microphone-mask-assembly-small-faa-approved-tso-c103-rev-e

 

I assume you know that you'll need a turbo bird to fly in the flight levels -- a 231 or 252, or Rocket 305 to keep it in your budget.  However, I'll note that lots of private pilots do long cross countries in normally aspirated planes, at altitudes of 8000-15000 ft.  

 

In my case, I bought my 252 so I could go high, and I wanted to do that for several reasons:

- speed

- to get over weather

- to get over mountains

- to have more landing options if there is a problem in flight (although fire or O2 problems are a factor in the flight levels)

 

In reality, it doesn't pay off to fly high all the time due to headwinds.  Sometimes I'm at 8000 ft.  I probably use O2 about 1/3 the time, but your missions might be different.  You should really think about whether the high altitude is a requirement, since the turbo adds complexity and cost.

 

If you really are trying to stay under $100k, then you can find a nice M20J or a 231 M20K (turbo) for that price.  

 

• How safe are Mooney's?
• What should I be asking that I am not?
• Can you do any basic aerobatics in a Mooney?

One of the things I really like about Mooneys are the strength of the airframe -- there has never been an inflight breakup of a Mooney (unlike the Bonanzas).  The wing spar design is similar to that of the P-51, and is continuous from side-to-side.  I have read (can't find the source right now), that the design was successfully tested to 12 positive G's, and that an owner's plane survived an inadvertent 14G load.  

 

Despite the strength, it's not an aerobatic plane, unless you consider lazy 8's and chandelles to be aerobatic maneuvers and then of course it can do those.  The issue with the aerobatics is the spin prohibition, as has been mentioned.

 

What you're not asking....  Have you been in a Mooney?  If not, find one, and go for a ride.  PM me if you're near Springfield, MO, Dallas, Memphis, or Columbus AFB and I can make that happen.

 

Regarding the FIKI comments - I wouldn't call that a requirement...  a FIKI bird is going to put you over budget unless it's got a runout engine.  And then you're still over budget.  If you're flying on personal missions, one hopes you've got flexibility and can choose not to go if you aren't sure you can avoid icing.  And with in-cockpit weather from XM, and/or good pre-flight planning, you should be able to avoid icing conditions 99.5% of the time.  And then get the heck out of them if you encounter them.  That said, I'd like to have it and would have it on my plane if not for an unscrupulous installer, but that's another story.

 

Good luck, ask every question you can think of, and hopefully we can help.

[Amelia]

You'll get more knowledgeable technical advice from other Mooniacs, and all I can offer is my own XC experience.

My Mooney 231 has whisked me from east coast to west and back a number of times in the 25 years I've owned it. It leaps tall mountains in a single bound, has no trouble topping haze layers and puffy summer buildups. Its range (6 hours LOP) far exceeds my husband's, so for westbound flights, we usually stop after 3 hours or so for top-off and leg-stretching. Happy pax are a joy. Fidgety uncomfortable ones, not so much. Eastbound, I often head for the ultra-smooth midteens and nice tailwinds.

Built-in o2 with adjustable-flow nasal cannulas is lovely, ever so convenient, except for the expense and hassle of refilling it. The places that sell it have names that include the words "jet center" which means an automatic hefty luxury upcharge. My usual flight is 750 miles or so, at 11,000 to 13,000, 165 TAS, 10-11gph. Makes visiting far-flung family an easy weekend adventure. Why sure, Grandmama will come to your ballet recital /robotics contest, etc, tomorrow, little one!

Mooneys are nowhere near the all-weather machines you are flying now, but better than the 172 you remember fondly. That is where a turbo-model comes into its own. A nice climb rate, even out of 13000 feet is lovely when you're tired of mucking around in the low level soup.

Finding superb partners, or being found by them, was the best thing ever. Learned SO much from those good guys. Now located in the Back of Beyond, where qualified partners are nowhere to be found, and I miss them.

You expected Mooney owners to be fairly partisan, didn't you? Good. Just be prepared for enthusiastic proselytizing, and go find some little airplanes nearby with backwards tails, and sit in them, make airplane noises with your lips, and see if you can't talk yourself into a ride. You will soon be among the converts, grabbing airport tire kickers by the arm, and telling them all about the greatest single-engine airplane ever built: Yours!

[Amelia]

PS.

O2 maintenance has been no problem at all. I did have to replace the built-in tank a year ago... Nothing wrong with it but past its no-more-hydros date. Otherwise, simple and dependable.

No real aerobatics. This is not that airplane. No spins, no inverted, etc. Great, comfortable, economical transportation for two or three people over longish distances, though.

It might be worth looking at 231s...seems very nicely-equipped ones aren't hard to find well within your price range. If you're ever anywhere nearby, (NE NC) feel free to come look at mine,just for an example,

Safe? The safest! I heard a ZTL controller explain why. "We never worry about Mooney pilots," he told his audience. "They're usually so far behind the airplane, it will be an hour or two before they make it to the scene of the crash."

[Bob - S50]

Greetings,

 

I'm a 'heavy' military pilot looking into purchasing a private aircraft (or at least a share in one), and I was hoping to get some help in identifying if Mooney would be right for me.  I have >2k hours in heavy multi-engine aircraft, but I only have about 150 hours in GA aircraft, and all of those are in a C-172.  In other words, I'm pretty ignorant about the options open to me.

 

So here are my basic Mooney questions:

 

• Which is the best/most efficient model for a 1,000NM XC with no more than 2 passengers + bags
• How does O2 work in an unpressurized airplane at 20K ft?  I notice the M20's have pretty nice ceilings, is there a separate oxygen system and how hard is that to maintain?
• How safe are Mooney's?
• What should I be asking that I am not?
• Can you do any basic aerobatics in a Mooney?

Ideally cost would be low - under 150k for sure but preferably under 100k.

 

Any thoughts would be great.  Thanks!

 

I like all the info given above.  Just a few comments.

 

When considering an airplane, regardless of make or model, be sure to ask about the useful load.

 

FIKI is nice but it adds weight.

 

Speedbrakes are nice but they add weight.

 

Extended range tanks are nice but they add weight, especially when full of fuel.

 

Anything you do that reduces useful load will limit either how much weight you can haul or how far you can haul it.

 

There are lots of things that are nice to have that all add weight to the airplane and reduce the useful load.  Consider what you want to be able to do.  Never more than 3 people?  Sometimes 4 people?  Longest time airborne? (my wife and I have agreed to rarely exceed 3 hours).  Crossing mountains?  Cross the mountains around Seattle in the winter?

 

They will all impact the type of flying you will need to do and how much useful load you'll need.  In my 'J', with a useful load of 960 lbs, 240 lbs of fuel will let me fly 3 hours with reserves which leaves me 720 lbs for people and bags.  That's 3 typical adults and full bags or 4 smaller people with some bags.  If I need to carry more than that it starts limiting how much I can haul.  If I want to load up my wife, her brother, and his wife, and no bags; I can only put on enough fuel to fly about 250 miles.

 

It all depends on how you plan to use the plane.

 

Bob