Moone 201J with major damage history

[manoflamancha]

 

Hi fellow pilots,

 

Prospective Mooney owner here and I have flown Mooney 201J and Mooney 252 with friends. I am a fairly low time pilot with private rating and 250 total hours looking at a Mooney 201J. I see one for sale as part of a estate sale for 59K OBO that has had at least 2 gear up damage that occurred 3 years ago. Repairs were done by Top Gun in Stockton, CA including engine tear down. Also had a prop strike. Should I pass on this plane or would you consider it if they negotiated on price. 

 

Thanks,

Scott

 

 

[MB65E]

The Top Gun guys do nice work and wouldn't let anything out of their shop that was not right. It was probably claimed on the owners insurance thus was hopefully repaired with out funds being an issue. I'd have Lasar do the prebuy just to cross reff everything. What aircraft is it? There are a few that have been for sale for a long time. It's probably worth at least a look in person.

Cheers,

-Matt

[carusoam]

How do you feel about it?

It has been attended to by a top name in MSCs.

PPI is important to protect your investment.

They disclosed the history and gave you a price. There isn't much you can negotiate for that reason.

Had it been advertised as NDH and then you found the damage, that would be different.

How long has it been sitting? and what are the hours on it? These are the question someone knowledgable about M20Js would be asking....

Do your best and welcome aboard,

-a-

[RangerJim]

Gear ups are not necessarily major damage.  Matt's advice is sound.  Definitely worth a look see.

[DaV8or]

As long as you get a discount for the damage and you're aware that you will have to give that same discount when you sell it, then go for it! Gear ups usually just mean you get a one piece belly and probably a better prop! Gear up really aren't a big deal. The MSCs will confirm this.

 

I agree with the above that you should get your pre purchase inspection done at LASAR and not Top Gun. Top Gun knows the plane well and is likely to not look as closely at it as another shop that hasn't ever seen the plane before. It's good to check the work.

[Bennett]

I'm with DaV8or on this one.  In my opinion LASAR is the best shop in the country when it comes to gear ups. They have the tools, supplies, and knowledge to do the job right.  Simple gearups generally do not do a great deal of damage to Mooneys. Sure, a new prop, an engine teardown, most likely an overhaul, and a one piece belly, are the result, but the gear itself must be looked at, and defective components replaced.  Two gearups in a short time period are puzzling. Same pilot for each occurrence?  Who did the first repair?  Top Gun is a fine shop, but I agree, that having LASAR appraise the damage makes sense in this instance. Over time, the damage history will have less of an impact on the aircraft's value, provided that log books show a competent Mooney specialist shop has done the repairs without deferred work. Now a grear up in a Cessna 210 is another matter entirely, as this is a double skin aircraft. A friend's son had a gear up in the family P210, and the repairs were unbelievably expensive, and took many, many months to obtain all the parts needed to rebuild the airplane.  Yet my friend flew that airplane for another 20+ years without problems. Since these gear ups were fairly recent, there should be a good sized discount in the price  - more of a negotiation tool, than a reflection on the airworthiness of the aircraft, if repaired correctly.

[manoflamancha]

 

Thanks guys the 201J has almost 5000 hours TT and close to 900 SMOH and about 300 SPOH. It also has a M20 turbo charger which is nice for flying out west. Paint and interior need updating and while it is IFR the avionics are very old. So I would need to add a Garmin 530W or 750W to it.

 

Scott

[carusoam]

You will also want to check the health of the turbo, as part of the PPI. The name M20 Turbo is a little misleading, I believe. It is an after-market device not directly related to Mooney.

Parts availability should be verified to build your confidence in this particular situation.

Don't get me wrong. There may be many happy owners of that turbo here...

You can search MooneySpace for more experience.

Best regards,

-a-

[rainman]

Scott,

Pass on this one. Get one that doesn't need a bunch of updating. At the homecoming Mr Garrison stated that most being sold come with at least a 430 WAAS for example.

[manoflamancha]

Thanks Rainman, agree.

[aaronk25]

Yes I would be more concerned about the lack of updates than the repaired damage. You will spend a bunch getting a modern panel.....

[carusoam]

There is a balance....

Modern, updated, low engine time planes start to ring the desirable bell.

Add paint and interior it is complete and commands a price closer to $100k.

High engine time nice Js were $80k.

Doggy Js were $70k.

The economy is improving, fuel price has stayed off the peak, people are returning to their normal ways. Spring is prime time for buying things after a cold winter.

What will a PPI find on the lowest cost J on the market?

What will the first annual find a year after you own it?

Bargaining at the low range will cost you more.

Nice Cs can be purchased for the doggy J price.

Do you like to work with mechanics on updating things(many of us do)?

Use caution when overspending on a dog, when a nicer condition but lesser plane is available.

Quality first, then price....

Good luck in the hunt,

-a-

[manoflamancha]

I don't mind learning to perform owner assisted maintenance on the plane. Anyways, I'll keep looking. Happy Easter.

Scott

[231LV]

Patience is the key with buying a nice plane...oh and cash...at the ready. Nice ones don't last long and go fast! I agree with all previous posters and the advice to use LASAR for prebuy. TG does good work but cross check never hurts. Sound advice on the cost of the panel versus the gear ups....sounds like a club plane or school with those hours. Updating the panels are incredibly expensive and everyone loves glass but many, including myself, are content to fly behind steam gauges....good luck

[bumper]

Even with an older panel, it might still be worth having a look. A big plus, IMO, is the recently torn down engine . . . chances are there won't be any expensive engine surprises from sitting unused. If the price is decent enough, you can always upgrade the panel later.

 

bumper

[manoflamancha]

Thanks for the tips. I'm fine with steam gauges, a Garmin 430 or 530 and decent autopilot. Funny today I flew to Shelter Cove and few Mooneys there and I flew the club Piper. I can use Foreflight with a panel mount GPS for backup. Ideal to have long range tanks and nice clean Mooney.

[bradp]

I am going into three years with 1QH, which does have a gear up in its history. Happened at Kerrville and Dugosh performed all the repairs. Engine was torn down at that time. I had a PPI with Top Gun and keep owing to the reputation of both those shops, I was reassured that I found a good airframe. Feel free to get my details by PM if you'd like to talk more. Brad

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[manoflamancha]

Hi Brad,

Good to hear. The owner is willing to cut me a serious deal on the 201 so I will have LASAR perform an extra rigorous prebuy on it especially on the turbo status.

Scott

[Guest]

Scott,

Remember that if you are buying it at a reduced price to account for the previous damage. If the repairs are done well, the rest is just emotional baggage. When you go to sell it you too will be discounting it.

Totally different if you buy a pristine airframe and damage it yourself, then you will feel the pain of discounting it at the time of selling it.

Clarence

[funk74]

Hello all,

 

I am also starting to look at moonies for purchase. Great comments on here.

 

Just for education, How much of a discount would you estimate in a case like this when there was a Gear Up landing or some damage? Like If you had 2 identical planes and one had a history of damage while the other one didn't?

 

Also when looking at a used purchase, how and what would you rank and in what order of importance when deciding between planes? (i.e Cost, Age, TT, SMOH, SPOH, Avionics, etc...)

 

Thanks for you knowledge.

[ArtVandelay]

It depends, if the gear up was 10 years ago or last year?

First thing you need to figure out is what is your mission:

local flying, short cross country trips, long cross country trips,

how high do you need to go, IFR or VFR, and of course, how much?

[scottfromiowa]

It depends, if the gear up was 10 years ago or last year?

First thing you need to figure out is what is your mission:

local flying, short cross country trips, long cross country trips,

how high do you need to go, IFR or VFR, and of course, how much?

Why? If the work has been done properly, (new belly panels, new prop, new nose gear doors and an engine tear down) the plane IS BETTER than it was pre-incident, as it has a one piece belly and a NEW prop and the engine has been looked at. There are incidents/accidents and there are gear ups. I would have zero issue buying a gear-upped plane THAT HSA BEEN PROPERLY REPAIRED. What is the discount for exactly?

[DaV8or]

Hello all,

 

I am also starting to look at moonies for purchase. Great comments on here.

 

Just for education, How much of a discount would you estimate in a case like this when there was a Gear Up landing or some damage? Like If you had 2 identical planes and one had a history of damage while the other one didn't?

 

Also when looking at a used purchase, how and what would you rank and in what order of importance when deciding between planes? (i.e Cost, Age, TT, SMOH, SPOH, Avionics, etc...)

 

Thanks for you knowledge.

 

As to the damage history, Jimmy Garrison's and others value estimators give an idea what the market seems to deduct for damage history. Usually if the damage history is further than 10 years or so ago, there is little to no deduction. These days in the vintage market and also early Js, I would phrase it more like, how much extra are you willing to pay for no damage history? It's all negotiable and relative. Seems like some are willing to pay $5-10,000 extra.

 

The way you prioritize various factors like damage history, TT, SMOH, avionics, etc. really comes down to the individual. What's important to you? Avionics are important to me, so I put them at the top of the list, but others are happy flying with just a compass and an old stop watch. As long as the paint is shiny and the cabin smells of new leather, some don't mind rapping on the panel with their shoe to check the fuel level. Some are obsessed with age, times and lack of damage history, others see these as a way to save a lot of money.

 

I could list my priorities here, but there would be others come on and they would have very different priorities. There are as many different opinions on it as there are pilots. You kind of have to do the reading on the arguments for each thing, like what does the age of an airplane matter? What does SMOH really mean? Does TT really mean anything? How much do avionics cost to put in? Is damage history as bad as it sounds? Then decide what is and isn't important to you.

 

Some lucky folks out there don't have to think about it. They just buy a brand new plane and skip the worries. The rest of us have some degree of homework to do. Aviation forums like this one are a good place to do it. Just use the search function first and then if not satisfied post a new thread specifically about your area of concern.

 

Good luck and happy hunting! There is no better time to buy a used airplane than right now.

[scottfromiowa]

It is a ploy for buyers to get money off...if you can get it as a buyer, great, good for you, but we are not talking lost log books or wing stringer incidents with a gear up. Come on, what is the number and WHY for the discount...

[pinerunner]

I was able to get $4000 off the asking price for my E just because the owner was having trouble selling. If you don't read the market right you get to take the hit instead.  Well done repairs don't make a plane worth less in my book but Mooney's are so undervalued its often not worth fixing; easier to call what could be a reasonable rebuild project totalled, sell for parts, and buy another.

 

Prebuy inspection from good center would erase my concerns about the previous damage and repairs but how long did it sit? I'm afraid a supposedly low time engine that sat for a long time might be better going straight to the shop but maybe running briefly and sending oil for testing would be enough.

 

How does one judge a plane that sat for a LONG time? I'm sure it can be brought back BUT....