Sensible avionics upgrades for vintage mooney's?

[Corvus]

Hey guys I was looking to see what your thoughts were on upgrades for the vintage aircraft. I'm looking at about 5 years of ownership of this aircraft and then moving up. So going for a G500 is a bit silly. But on the other side of the coin, I like the idea of getting rid of my KT76A and maybe killing two birds with one stone and spending the money once to meet ADSB compliance. Anyone have any experience of thoughts on the new avidyne systems? They seem to be taking advantage of garmins planned obsolescence. ie. the IFD440 slides right into the same exact slot as a GNS430, where as the New 650 requires a new rack etc.

[BigTex]

If you only plan on keep your plane for 5 years, I'd not invest too much.  I do know that brokers will install a GNS430W because they will not sell otherwise.  Not knowing what you have, you'll need at a minimum a good GPS installed to move it down the road.

[Cruiser]

don't forget about the changes to the "certified aircraft" category soon to be approved by the FAA. If you can wait a couple more years, your aircraft will be legal with current non-TSO equipment, a much cheaper route to follow. In the meantime look at iPad and one of the aviation apps.

[benpilot]

 

Get a portable ADSB+AHRS unit with ipad and save a lot and then you can take it with you. Avionic upgrades are way too expensive to make it worthwhile for most vintage aircraft with a hull value less than 100k. When I buy, the plane will at least have a Garmin 430W/530W or better. 

[BigTex]

 

 

Get a portable ADSB+AHRS unit with ipad and save a lot and then you can take it with you. Avionic upgrades are way too expensive to make it worthwhile for most vintage aircraft with a hull value less than 100k. When I buy, the plane will at least have a Garmin 430W/530W or better. 

 

 

Oh Grasshopper... one doesn't know of what one speaks.... 

[NotarPilot]

Get a portable ADSB+AHRS unit with ipad and save a lot and then you can take it with you. Avionic upgrades are way too expensive to make it worthwhile for most vintage aircraft with a hull value less than 100k. When I buy, the plane will at least have a Garmin 430W/530W or better.

When are you finally gonna buy?

[Corvus]

The plane is equipped with a GNS430, KX-155 KN-64 KT76A

Like I had said, I am not interested in a major refit, I have no plans as of now, just merely entertaining the conversation My apologies for being a little vague, I was mainly gauging thoughts on the AXP340 as a replacement for the KT76A, but didn't want to limit thought input to just that alone if someone saw a valid reason to bring up something related.

@cruiser that is an interesting point, I haven't really kept up on the details of the pending changes, or how deep the potential impact will be when things flesh out.

[NotarPilot]

don't forget about the changes to the "certified aircraft" category soon to be approved by the FAA. If you can wait a couple more years, your aircraft will be legal with current non-TSO equipment, a much cheaper route to follow. In the meantime look at iPad and one of the aviation apps.

I don't mean to hijack the thread but can you or anyone else with more knowledge of this please elaborate? I know nothing about a proposal to allow non-TSO equipment on certificated aircraft.

[Marauder]

They are talking about the stuff in Tony's post. I agree with him. It will be a long time before that happens... has-anyone-had-any-experience,-good-or-bad-with-the-MVP50P http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.php?/topic/5720-has-anyone-had-any-experience%2C-good-or-bad-with-the-MVP50P

[Bob_Belville]

Depends upon your definition of "sensible", I guess.

 

Here's my "sensible" for my '66E...but I'm only 70 so maybe my time frame is more than your 5 years...   

 

Seriously, with a limited budget, I'd go for an EDM and the GPS 696 first.

[mike_elliott]

, I was mainly gauging thoughts on the AXP340 as a replacement for the KT76A, but didn't want to limit thought input to just that alone if someone saw a valid reason to bring up something related.

 

 

Why not consider the KT74 for a lot less $

http://www.bendixking.com/Products/Communications-Navigation-Identification/Transponders/KT-74

[BigTex]

, I was mainly gauging thoughts on the AXP340 as a replacement for the KT76A, but didn't want to limit thought input to just that alone if someone saw a valid reason to bring up something related.

Why not consider the KT74 for a lot less $

http://www.bendixking.com/Products/Communications-Navigation-Identification/Transponders/KT-74

Since you already have a 430, you might want to consider the GTX330ES. I have the GNS430W/GTX330ES combo and really like it. I really appreciate the TIS functionality. It's been a real life saver... Literally!

[Corvus]

I like the GTX330 as well and it would certainly be high on the list of options to consider. Is it the only unit that will interface with the 430?

I like Garmin stuff, I bring up other ideas for two reasons.

1.) Garmin has become the 800 lb gorilla and there are elements of railroading customers into what appears to be a planned obsolesce business model. If I am not mistaken there is a population of G1000 systems out there that are stuck in unsupported purgatory. Another example is requiring new racks for panel mount units if you want to upgrade to the current Gen stuff, that is of course a small part of the price when upgrading, but all the same, it says a lot about the thier state of mind IMO. That puts a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

2.) (theoretically speaking) Other manufactures have had time to come up with competing systems that need to offer something above the Garmin product to pull people away from them into their product lines. It is going to take a strong product and a strong price point to do so. I am about as loyal to Garmin as they are to me.

The KT74 is an intriguing idea...

[rbridges]

Why not consider the KT74 for a lot less $

http://www.bendixking.com/Products/Communications-Navigation-Identification/Transponders/KT-74

 

 

I was thinking that, too.  I have a very similar setup to the OP except my 430 is waas.

[jabodine]

My advice would be to make those changes which satisfy your need for situational awareness and enhance your safety. In my M20 I have a Garmin 430W, KNS80 DME, traffic collision avoidance, and a second com. It is not the fanciest panel on earth but gives great navigation information and situational awareness and a good level of redundancy and backup. I feel comfortable flying it nearly anywhere. Opinions of others may vary. I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Jonathan Bodine

[OR75]

Garmin model is the .com model with push to upgrade.

I have a GNS 430. I do not need a touchscreen. The iPad allows me to do all the screen touching I want !

I am waiting to see if the KT-74 can get indeed get its WAAS source from the GNS-430

[jamesm]

Why we are on the subject of transponders..... Why not Sandia STX 165  http://www.sandia.aero/?q=node/66

Get rid of the  separate encoder unit in a very small package.  ~$1700

[bnicolette]

I'm leaning towards the KT-74 with a used 430W as my way ahead. And I'll still keep my KNS80 for nav2. Old school.

Gotta love that KNS80.  I use mine all the time.  I think more than anything because I'm able to play around with the knobs and setting up an RNAV point.  In other words................out of boredom and that nostalgic feeling.  :-)   

[N601RX]

And if it quits working $200 and a quick look on ebay will replace it. I enjoy playing with the one in my plane also.

[Bob_Belville]

I had a KNS80 before redoing my panel. I spent $593. repairing it in May 2012, a few months before selling it on EBAY for $460, minus fees. It was a fancy gadget... in the stone age. 

[pinerunner]

I had a KNS80 before redoing my panel. I spent $593. repairing it in May 2012, a few months before selling it on EBAY for $460, minus fees. It was a fancy gadget... in the stone age. 

I have a KNS80 in my panel too. I just spent a little over $800 replacing the one that came with my M20E, which was just too far gone. I like my KNS80 which is high tech compared to my training days in the 70's. Since I laid off flying for a couple of decades for financial reasons it seemed pretty cool when I bought N1289X a couple years ago.  Now I'm working on my IFR rating and I can see some on its shortcomings. On the trip back with it I had the experience of tracking the station instead of the waypoint; you can tell it either with the push of a button. I was dehydrated and tired, hours into the longest x-country of my life, and inadvertently got 20 miles off course while approaching NY city VFR. With that old box it was easy to get it right but also easy to get it wrong.  While I'll continue to use it getting my IFR and some ultra-simple first IFR flights, GPS is clearly the next Nav radio to go into my plane and I thinking that despite the cost I'd better go straight to WAAS. 

 

I'm thinking that in the scramble to get WAAS in the last couple years before 2020 the proce will go up. Thoughts? Most affordable WAAS solutions?

[Marauder]

I have a KNS80 in my panel too. I just spent a little over $800 replacing the one that came with my M20E, which was just too far gone. I like my KNS80 which is high tech compared to my training days in the 70's. Since I laid off flying for a couple of decades for financial reasons it seemed pretty cool when I bought N1289X a couple years ago.  Now I'm working on my IFR rating and I can see some on its shortcomings. On the trip back with it I had the experience of tracking the station instead of the waypoint; you can tell it either with the push of a button. I was dehydrated and tired, hours into the longest x-country of my life, and inadvertently got 20 miles off course while approaching NY city VFR. With that old box it was easy to get it right but also easy to get it wrong.  While I'll continue to use it getting my IFR and some ultra-simple first IFR flights, GPS is clearly the next Nav radio to go into my plane and I thinking that despite the cost I'd better go straight to WAAS. 

 

I'm thinking that in the scramble to get WAAS in the last couple years before 2020 the proce will go up. Thoughts? Most affordable WAAS solutions?

 

I'm hoping that the 2020 mandate will help lower prices! Bendix King and Avidyne's interest in bringing WAA capable GPS units to market should help introduce some competition in the market. The early signs are good with the price I saw for the BK 770 unit at around $11k. If it is similar in size to the Garmin 750, they will have a decent competitive offering (and assuming it will do everything that BK says it will).

 

As far as upgrading, I have no regrets about updating my older Mooney. If your plane serves the majority of the missions you take on, upgrading is a no brainer.

[Corvus]

I agree to a point, but the reason I bring this up is if you bought your C E or F, to meet your mission goals, you know that a vintage aircraft can be had for a good price, but we sign the paper knowing that price is partly due to living under the shadow of the mighty J. So if you decide to spend the money to turn your vintage aircraft into a modern avionics showcase, you will reach a total investment point where you would saturate the investment in the aircraft (quickly) to the point where you would be money ahead selling your current aircraft and adding the upgrade funds to buy a nice J with the same avionics you would have purchased for your current airplane.

That's not to say its a bad idea to upgrade, provided it is approached with the mindset that matches the airplane.

[BigTex]

I agree to a point, but the reason I bring this up is if you bought your C E or F, to meet your mission goals, you know that a vintage aircraft can be had for a good price, but we sign the paper knowing that price is partly due to living under the shadow of the mighty J. So if you decide to spend the money to turn your vintage aircraft into a modern avionics showcase, you will reach a total investment point where you would saturate the investment in the aircraft (quickly) to the point where you would be money ahead selling your current aircraft and adding the upgrade funds to buy a nice J with the same avionics you would have purchased for your current airplane.

That's not to say its a bad idea to upgrade, provided it is approached with the mindset that matches the airplane.

Pretty tired argument. Most folks go into major upgrades knowing they will never recover the amount they put into the upgrades. It doesn't matter if it's a B or a J. For that matter any other piece of machinery one upgrades or restores will take a financial hit. Look at folks that restore cars to better than new. Everyone knows that the restorer looses and the buys wins. No different in airplanes.

If someone wants to restore their vintage aircraft to be a modern day showpiece... More power to them.

[Bob_Belville]

I agree to a point, but the reason I bring this up is if you bought your C E or F, to meet your mission goals, you know that a vintage aircraft can be had for a good price, but we sign the paper knowing that price is partly due to living under the shadow of the mighty J. So if you decide to spend the money to turn your vintage aircraft into a modern avionics showcase, you will reach a total investment point where you would saturate the investment in the aircraft (quickly) to the point where you would be money ahead selling your current aircraft and adding the upgrade funds to buy a nice J with the same avionics you would have purchased for your current airplane.

That's not to say its a bad idea to upgrade, provided it is approached with the mindset that matches the airplane.

The many Js I've seen advertised for under $100k do not have the state of the art avionics I have in my E. Aspen, GTN 750, GDL88 (2020 complient), JPI EDM930 etc Js with that kind of panel, if you can find them, are considerably higher priced. Which is only reasonable. ISTM, a value is still the sum of 3 pieces, the airframe (model, age, mods), the engine/prop (useful life remaining), and the panel. While not every buyer will appreciate that the right price for an F might be $35k or $75k depending... some will.