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After 400hrs of smashing bugs in brand C, I finally bought a 201! I spent a great deal of time here reading various threads during my decision process. So thank you! My name is Andy Chambers and I'm based at KSTS (Santa Rosa, CA). As far as my wife knows, this is the second happiest day of my life!

This certainly wasn't the point that I was making. I think AOA is a phenomenal tool that I may one day install in my airplane. I take issue with the OP's statement that anyone who flies by airspeed is "an accident waiting to happen." But I will grant that he has huge cojones for telling pilots who were flying before he was born that they've been doing it wrong all this time.

I've followed this discussion from the sidelines so far and have no comment on the content. There appear to be some valid points on both sides. But I do have to say that the "presentation" leaves much room for improvement. I camped next to 201er at Oshkosh this year and he was a nice-enough guy. But when I read his statements below my respect for his opinions dropped a notch. There are a LOT of intelligent, experienced, accomplished individuals on this forum and the condescension in these statements sure leaves a bad taste in my mouth. "Flying airspeed in the traffic pattern is stupid" "you are going about an old fashioned, illogical, complex mind dance" "I think pilots flying by airspeed are oblivious" "It is the people who fly by airspeed that are in trouble. They are unaware of their margins" "(you) haven't flown in some of the airports I have flown" "flying by airspeed is an accident waiting to happen" "you can pussyfoot your way around the pattern" "your piloting skills prohibit you from flying into" I'm gonna just chalk it up to youthful indiscretion and hope that his confidence never exceeds his capabilities. And maybe I'll buy him a beer next time as well.

Mike -- not quite sure what the message you are trying to project here? That AOA indicators can help you fix a crappy flown approach to an airport? Personally, I have flown and misjudged a pattern like what you showed on your first landing, who hasn't? The only difference for me is that on base, I'm realizing it is screwed up and I am starting to plan my upwind go around. On your second landing, despite your claim that you turn base to final in a position so you can make a glide to the airport, the final you showed flown was with power. I'm hoping your thread was an attempt to liven up a rather dead week on MooneySpace. If it wasn't, just keep in the back of your mind that the aviation demon loves overly confident aviators. They make for a tasty snack. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Carsom line for the win " I'm pretty good at misunderstanding what somebody has said. " I promise to work that into a conversation next week.

This is the closest thing they had to a Mooney in WW2. M51 I think... Reno starts 9/14 through 9/18 see you there... For perspective these two P51s are going north of 510mph in this shot.

I was based at an obstructed 3000' runway with a ridgeline between downwind and the runway for seven years. I've never banked over 30° in the pattern, and rarely go beyond standard rate. Its the same when flying into a 2000' grass strip, except I make sure of low weight and corresponding low airspeed. 75 mph on short final heavy minus 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross. Fuel is 300 lbs. It's easy to do the math in my fingers. Since I missed the group buy in AoA, I've not put one in yet; ASI works well as originally taught and as transitioned into my Mooney and as refined by two MAPA PPPs. Minimal float, I'm usually down by the third stripe. Guess I need to measure the exits at my new 3200' no approach / no PAPI field, there are two between the ends but not at the center. I usually don't even brake for them going either direction. Note that I'm not calling any names, I'm just saying that while AoA may be nice to have, it's not necessary even for short fields maybe superfluous would be a better description. Rather like an iPad in flight . . .

Me too. I agree with Mike that we should all be flying AoA. I wish all GA planes had AoA indicators in them from way back and that we were all trained to use them during our PP training, but that's not the case. Now it's a nice to have feature that I want to get one day. Other than that, I pretty much disagree with Mike on the way he flies his pattern. His overshoot, steep turn technique is not for me. No, thanks. Just as a curiosity, why do people obsess about flying tight, in close patterns so much? They say it's so if you lose your engine, you can always make the runway, but why is there so much concern about losing an engine once we get close to an airport? Seems funny to me that after flying over oceans and rugged mountains and dense urban areas and forests full of trees, that we get to an airport and then worry about engine failure.

Today we finished the cross country trip begun yesterday. Left Torrington and flew via airways at 12,000. Some light freezing rain and some rime ice over Utah: glad I filled the TKS tank. Lunch at Elko, NV, then on into Marin County in the afternoon. Some fine views just east of SLC, terrain I was glad was visible. Over Eden, UT looking SW: Then past the ridges and over the Great Salt Lake and under ice-laden clouds:

No no. You miss the point. It is intentional. If I am too high on base, I wait to turn later so that the turn required is steeper. Steeper turn soaks up more energy. The main difference is that I drop the nose substantially to maintain a constant angle of attack in the turn. It is the people who fly by airspeed that are in trouble. They are unaware of their margins.

I don't know if this has been posted before. I just saw it.

My 500 "inspection" was a complete IRAN which included new bearings, points, carbon brushes, etc. But then I'm flying behind a Bendix dual-mag and cut NO CORNERS when it comes to magneto maintenance. I recall spending a little under $800 for the (near-overhaul) service in 2015. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You amateur aerospace engineers are so adorable... The forces acting on an object moving through a fluid are definitely more complicated than any of the simplified algebraic equations you are posting. Most of what you are posting is simplified versions of a difficult triple integral problem that describes the conservation of momentum in a viscous compressible fluid -- if you make simplifying assumptions about shape, viscosity, and compressibility, you get to each equation you are debating. None of which perfectly describes the forces acting on an wing, let alone the whole aircraft (see navier stokes equation) alone. Fwiw, neither does Bernoulli, to get to his equation, you also have to make simplifying assumption that does not take into account spanwise lift, amongst other things, for instance, but it is also derived from the conservation of momentum equations. But Bernoulli's equations are derivable form Newton's Laws, it's not either or, it's just an expression of conservation of momentum. So, given that and the title of the thread, I vote Newton's Laws win. as for how to teach a student pilot without calculus, I think basic constructs of force vectors and effect of angle of attack on lift seems to do the job. Don't change what works. I can tell you from experience lots of pilots are startlingly bad at math. (BS Aerospace Engineering, Georgia Tech; Masters Mechanical Engineering, Rice University. Happy to send anyone copies of my text books and fluid dynamics notes, if anyone wants to learn the governing equations themselves.)

Chuck, it's true a lot of content has been lost in the static of tone here. I am trying this forum to connect with other aviators who are continually trying to expand their personal envelopes. Having flown with you, I know you are one of those. I've ignored the unfortunate incivility which is not a monopoly of any one poster here. Perhaps others felt provoked? Or maybe there is some background of which I'm unaware. But cutting through the ego-driven BS, and what's more disturbing, is how reluctant some pilots seem to be to challenge what they "know" to be true...even when they can't explain why or how they "know" it. The fundamental premise I took away from the OP was that AoA is more useful than airspeed. It's irrelevant to anyone without an AoA indicator (of whom I am one), but could have provoked a great discussion about how our wings work...load factor, what a stall really is, why do we crash in the pattern.. Instead we've got posters whose airplanes "cannot stall" (wow-can l get that STC?!) and "always" do it one way no matter what and that way nothing bad will ever happen to them. Uh, OK...wonder if that is a common thread in every NTSB post-incident pilot interview - if the pilot survived. Fascinating...

Airliners use airspeed and those pilots aren't able to see their AOA, and they're safer by far than any other segment of aviation, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

I don't want another Patrick. This topic and type of lying is NOT a safe way to fly a Mooney. Experienced "friends" enable vs. "Setting a tone"...When my kids tried to do unsafe things...I YELLED "NO". This is an appropriate time for the adult to say something, not enable unnecessary and unsafe behavior. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is a good idea. O.K. I can look myself in the mirror and sleep just fine.

From what I see here, and in real life... 1) 201er demonstrates some pretty nice energy control. 2) on video, landing main wheels first, then lowering the nose, just passing the numbers on the ground. 3) in real life, I've flown with 201er, smooth landings are the norm. I got to stare at the instruments. 4) Sure, there is more to energy control than the final landing. 5) He probably had precision energy control at all the key positions, abeam the numbers, at the turn to base, and again at the turn to final too... 6) no fancy electronic gadgets. No flashy electronic screens or multi-color LEDs... Unless we want to include the Garmin nav/com, the bevy of video cameras, and the stick that provides electronic music files... 7) just the stall horn proceeding the light chirp of tires touching the ground. The time between the two sounds is not enough to make a control adjustment. 8) Then there is the PALs (medical charity) flight. Two guests enjoying what has got to be a stressful situation. 9) Is there over selling? Is there some misrepresentation? Did I miss something? 10) There is always calm follow through. He hangs out to discuss the extra details. Here and in real life. He may even point out a better way to do something that you may have forgotten. (In a nicer way than usual) 11) If I had the excess cash, I would be interested in an AOA and a G meter....(my butt isn't very sensitive since it aged) I don't think I could be like Mr. Yeager. Be like Mike! Being Mr. 201er wouldn't be so bad. Smooth and in control, always. No fancy flashy LEDs required! He seems to share... A lot! Best regards, -a-

After a full week and a bit at Burning Man in the Nevada desert, it's time to go home. The route was 88NV to KCCR (dropping off my cousin and her son) then KFLG (overnight mid way home). My Nephew Jax. He's 6 years old and has been to Burning Man 7 times. (His first time he was 4 weeks old.) I was able to fly him in and back out this year. Yosemite Valley from FL190. KCCR to KFLG at FL190 in 2:47. This is why I now fly a 252.

Correct, But light or heavy, you will be at complete stop somewhere around 2500ft mark without heavy breaking, even with 30gallons of fuel and just the pilot. I never flew the Bravo into shorter runway, so 75knots just works in the airplane, 1500 feet heavy, 2500 feet light. The less thinking that I do about basics of flying, the higher my survival chances as a pilot, I like expand my energy on navigation, weather, traffic, etc. Have I adjusted the speed before, of course, depending on conditions, but I still fly stabilized ILS like approaches, because I'm a crappy pilot, I know I'm a crappy pilot. Airlines have a lot of crappy pilots and yet they manage, because they don't play tricks on final. They fly vRef, 3 degrees down. If I have to fly a pattern, I'll fly it the same way, each time, not play tricks with AOA and energy management. I'm not that quick on my feet, at least I don't like playing that game in real life (that's for simulators). I watched your video, I don't fly enough to fly like you do, and even if I did fly enough, I still wouldn't fly like you do. Too steep, too close to the ground, too sudden power changes, this is not an approach any of my passengers would appreciate. If I have to steepen an approach, I'll use speed brakes. Like I said, I know I'm a crappy pilot all the time, but you know what, even the greatest pilots have crappy days. If I want to play bush pilot, I'll do it in a fat, light loaded wing, like a Husky where mistakes close to the ground don't mean instant death in a fireball.

"Leave door open for parrot"...that's funny, I don't know anything about birds but a dog wouldn't leave its owner. Would a parrot? Actually if the bird is in flight in the cabin, does it count towards gross weight?

You are just picking a fight. Fly your steep turns wherever and whenever you want. Just open the door so the parrot can get out. There is no necessity to fly a steep bank in the pattern. Ever. None. Even if you have to pee really bad. A Mooney test pilot with thousands of hours was aboard and stalled turning base to final. He is dead. Why? You sure like your AOA. Have fun with that. I wish I was half the pilot you are. I am not.

That sounds like a lot of work for an airplane with 5knot difference in stall speed between empty and gross. How about never get slower than 100mph/knots (others/long body) until on final, and you will never stall, up 60 degrees of bank, gear and full flaps down abeam the numbers, and if your engine dies, simply suck up the gear and you have the runway made and insurance company will pay for most of the engine overhaul and a new prop. See, made it much simpler for you. You guys make flying sound so complicated. KA350 has so far achieved a zero fatality rate here in US of A, has a much larger stall speed envelope than a Mooney and does not have an AOA. Amazing they are not falling out of the sky daily. You are applying "glider think" to a powered aircraft, exactly at the worst possible moment. If that engine quits right at that turn, where you are milking the AOA to max, you're a dead man. Don't believe me? Try it up high, pull the mixture and count to 2 and you'll be in a spin. Ever actually experienced an engine failure? The de acceleration is rapid, especially at high AOA. If you're going to push an aircraft to edge and you're relying on a flimsy AOA sensors available at this price point, you're asking for a lot more trouble than flying by airspeed crowd. I don't recall Bob Hoover using AOA sensors. You either wear the aircraft, or stick good old fashion procedure instead of doing pilot tricks in the pattern. Nobody ever died in a Mooney maintaining 100 thru the turn to final.

Holy Crap!! Is that really a picture of your airplane?! It looks factory new!! Slightly jealous! Well done! -Matt

Bernouli/Newton/Einstein...who cares! It's all theory. Experience is what counts. Anyone with one scintilla of experience knows money is what makes aircraft fly.

I've got a 1977 J model with a Lycoming IO-360-A3B6. The other day I couldn't get it to cold start. Those have never been a problem for me. The prop turned, but there was no sputter or any a hint of combustion. I deliberately flooded the engine and tried a flood start, same deal -- no sputter. My local mechanic took a look, and couldn't figure out what was wrong. The spark plugs are firing, the P-lead is good, he checked the ignition switch and even tried bypassing the switch to see if that would help. Finally he put everything back together and gave it one last try and managed to get it started. He said the engine ran poorly after that start, but it may have had too much fuel after all the previous attempts. But he did get it started, and he told me to try it and see it would start for me. Last Saturday, it started immediately on my first cold start attempt. The runup was perfect, and engine operation was smooth for the 1.5 hour flight, with a good in-flight mag check. Went back to fly last Sunday and I was back to the original no start problem. No sputters, nothing. Flooded start didn't work either. Grrrrrr! So it's back in the shop and my mechanic is stumped. He says he's checked everything he can think of. The spark plugs are firing, the timing is within 2 degrees (he's going to adjust that). The ignition switch seems to work correctly, and bypassing it doesn't help. He mentioned that he's a big fan of SlickStart and has one in his airplane. He's not positive it will fix my problem, but it could help. I've seen mixed reviews in searching. I've been reading some threads that mention switching to Tempest fine wire plugs has helped some people with starting issues. I'm wondering if I should try those over the SlickStart. Other items of note: The magnetos were overhauled last November at annual. I've flown about 60 hours since then. The engine is a factory reman with about 1000 hours on it The spark plugs are REM38E (looking at my logbook -- it doesn't say the brand, but I think they are Champion). They have about 600 hours on them. My mechanic says they tested good. I don't know if he's tested the resistance (I just read up on that this weekend). The plane has an impulse coupling, not a shower of sparks. At my request, my local mechanic has talked with Mark Rouch at Top Gun Aviation. Mark is equally stumped about what's going on. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

Yes, replace tail Yes on the tail light, I don't have the beacon, was removed by PO when strobes were installed. I did it at annual because I had a dead power supply and couple of dead bulbs.

>But Bernoulli's equations are derivable form Newton's Laws, it's not either or, it's just an expression of conservation of momentum. That's what I said. >So, given that and the title of the thread, I vote Newton's Laws win. I'm voting third party. I'm voting for the Einstein platform. >Happy to send anyone copies of my text books and fluid dynamics notes, if anyone wants to learn the governing equations themselves.) I'll take a copy please.

My agenda is simple: When I see people doing steep turns close to the ground, I think about my next insurance renewal, because I know how the story eventually ends. It always end the same way, hole in the ground, "great" news coverage for GA and higher rates.

Read my posts. No "berating" anywhere. No "push" - things or people - either, unless promoting more understanding is berating. You clearly have some other agenda unknown to me, so I'm going to disengage. You've already figured everything out anyway, that's great for you. I will get back to trying to improve my understanding.

Congrats! I just got mine about a month ago. I'm not far down the road at HJO. Kelty

Very nice looking Mooney!

Welcome and good luck, sweet looking ride, sure it's not your first favorite day, we wont tell.

C's E's F's and J's can be slipped like this, but don't do this in a long body with full flaps unless you enjoy tail stalls.

Yesterday we flew to LVK for a belated birthday celebration. Coming in was very busy but got sequenced without delay. One of the things About moms is its right under the outer shelf of the SFO bravo and a common way to avoid the B if flying into or out of he Bay Area. Lots of GA over fly the back yard at lower altitudes and some days depending on the approach being used the South West guys are so low looks like you could jump up and catch them. When we arrived and we're just about to leave the airport a fellow in a golf cart stopped at our plane got out and started taking a close look so I got out and flagged his attention to see what was up. He identified himself as a Mooney fan that worked the FBO and is wanting to get himself a Mooney. I asked if he knew of MS and he said he is on it but I can't remember his identity it was a series of letters. He seemed very nice and I wished him good luck. Would have liked to have spent more time but my wife and brother were waiting in the car. As we were getting ready to leave for home we rolled on taxi behind another Mooney that departed ahead of us I think his tail ended 25W but not sure. The haze was so thick heading home and we were right at the top of the layer so just a solid brownish blue horizon below and clear bright blue above a perfect straight line. A couple nice approaches and decent landings made for a good day.

I was one who acquired the AOA when first available, I don't think its the end all to be all, but I would't give it up. I like to use it on approaches especially GPS ones to give me another idea that I'm in the dumb blue donut I have one less item to consider, I know when I'm high its been useful in a sharp descent profile with the nose pointing at the runway I hope, since I can't see it yet, other than that it is useful in the final stages of pattern work. Did it make my landings better nope they still suck.But no broken parts yet.

You don't cut energy in a steep turn, the energy(drag) remains the same, but you do lose altitude. Ive botched final turns, and needed to make a 30 degree bank,but not 60, but I don't fly narrow patterns either.

And oh, not only am a MooneySpace poster, I am an AOA owner. [emoji6] Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So Clarence if i understand correctly : -E/F models were configured with impulse and right mag (non-impulse) was grounded out -A3B6D with the D3000 mag had both mags using a single impulse so both could be used for starting. But the switch was still configured to ground out the right Mag during starts. - the SB removes the ground jumper - if the engine is converted back to 2x mags (A3B6), like the OP, then the switch should be examined to make sure that the SB has been undone as to avoid backfires with advance timing of the right Mag during starting Back to OP: - it's most likely an ignition problem. - rule out plugs - less likely but rule out leads - slicks have problems with wire breaks in the secondary coil. That will produce ineffective voltage drop. The fact the the mags were recently overhauled points to your most likely culprit. Try a known decent mag on and then.m see if symptoms persist.

See you there! We'll all recognize you when you speak . . . Last year was a great time,,hopefully the weather will be nicer this year and I won't need to fly the GPS approach way out over the bay. I'd like to SEE it this time!

Thanks, I love watching as many accident analysis videos as well as reading accident reports as I can. (Subscribed to the AOPA Air Safety Institute channel on YouTube) I would rather learn from someone else's mistakes instead of making my own... Heaven knows I make enough of them on my own anyway...

Could we all take the bickering tone down a notch? What are we, Cirrus pilots? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the engine is so unlikely to quit, then why the hell are you flying tight patterns requiring you to use your AOA in order not to stall. IAS not useful? Amazing how many pilots have managed their entire life, flying by referencing to IAS, before the gizmos came out. Amazing how many little jets/turboprops still don't AOA. My head is out of the cockpit, looking for other aircraft, not looking at some gizmo on the panel. Quite frankly, I don't even need to look at the airspeed until on final because I know it will be well above any possibility of stalling, in any configuration up to 60 degrees of bank. How do you do that in the Bravo? By keeping power at about 20 inches. Once I turn, I lower it to 17 inches, cross the fence around 75knots, like clockwork. I don't need an AOA. There is no guess work. Cross the fence at 75knots, you will come to a stop at 2500ft max or so, no matter what the weight, wind, etc. I don't calculate weights, speeds because I don't fly on the edge. AOA to me is another gizmo waiting to break. Don't need it, don't want it. It buys me nothing for my flights from one precision approach equipped airport to another with 4000ft plus runways. I'll bet you that if we film your fancy panel, with your fancy AOA, doing your fancy pattern work, the IAS will be within few knots, always at the same AOA. Explain to me how you can stall a Mooney during base to final turn doing 100knot (or 20" of MP). You cannot without performing an acrobatic maneuver. And if I was flying right on the edge of performance, then I assure you, I would not be flying based on some $800 gizmo assembled in a third world country. I would know the yoke/control pressures within an ounce and could tell you my AOA with eyes closed like every bush pilot I've ever meet in Alaska on fishing and hunting trips does. Those guys don't need airspeed or AOA, they feel it. For flying GA aircraft with approach speed range of 5knots or less, to long, wide runways, I don't need one either. I need a MP gauge.

Let's put it this way, I have 10½ thousand hours in smaller GA airplane (mostly Mooneys) of which 5,800 is teaching in them, consider myself an expert in landings (even made a landing video to teach them), and I'm not going to practice simulate emergency landings into Palo Alto--way too risky. For example, there is a 5 foot berm leading to the threshold, which is slightly displaced. Misjudge and hit the berm and it's all over. Interestingly Tom Hornak was at Squadron 2 at Reid Hillview for many years. He was instrumental in setting up the airplane keying system there. He was one of the first to get the Master Flight Instructor Designation many years ago--since let it lapse. When I was working on my first one seven designations ago he willingly spent some time with me going over what was required for his portfolio. It made it easier to see what was required. Mine ended up like a dissertation with over 250 pages. Over time both CFIs and DPEs seem to get burned out. When that happens they need to take a break.

Andrew, they are a handout for the PPP Mapa training event. Somebody posted them around here sometime ago... It is a really good piece of information to have. Best regards, -a-

Mike, Great conversation points. Do you have a method of cross checking the AOA to see if it is working properly? Is it easy to verify against the ASI in the traffic pattern just before depending on it? Do you see any effects on AOA caused by slipping to the left vs to the right? I think Peter is going to harass you about not making the turn-off and having to taxi back for it. Thanks for sharing the video. The explanation beforehand, allowed me to visualize what was going to happen, just before watching the video. Makes me want to try glider flying. Best regards, -a-

Jerry-- Nice trip! I dodged Hermine the easy way, postponing departure from yesterday until,this morning. Beautiful flying from Alabama into the Carolinas, once away from south Atlanta.

Once when I was repacking my wheel bearings, I set the brake pads off to the side and when I went to reinstall, they looked brand new. Not sure what happened. My IA was perplexed, too, but after a thorough insprction he signed thd job off.

Can anyone guess which intersection always makes me think of Maurauder.