Perfect Landing Tip

[aaronk25]

I won't pick on you mooney veterans that have been warned but any people who are trying to learn the right and safest way follow the advice of your proficient mooney instructor. I doubt you will here Mike or Don saying dumping the flaps at flare is good practice. I know of one dummy who despite the gear and flap switch bring separated by a half a continent still, even tired and fatigued lifted the gear up instead of the flaps and slid it in costing 6 months of down time and 60k to boot.

I think it's great we all share info but when it comes to veterans advertising operations contrary to the POH, not supported by the mooney master CFIs I cringe a bit. There are new flyers on this forum and sometimes in search of the "silver bullet" for great landings but in my opinion doing cockpit gymnastics at a critical phase of flight isn't a best practice.

Again that's a piece of advice for the new guys....you other guys do as you like. Learn how to fly your plane, not use crutches.


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[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, eman1200 said:

in my one and only hour of dual a couple of weeks ago in a J, I felt like the plane landed the same as every other plane I've been in.  

If "every other plane" means a good number of different makes/model, your experience is not surprising. The more different types one flies, the easier the transitions become as one begins to recognize the many similarities and learn the relatively few differences.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, aaronk25 said:

I won't pick on you mooney veterans that have been warned but any people who are trying to learn the right and safest way follow the advice of your proficient mooney instructor. I doubt you will here Mike or Don saying dumping the flaps at flare is good practice. I know of one dummy who despite the gear and flap switch bring separated by a half a continent still, even tired and fatigued lifted the gear up instead of the flaps and slid it in costing 6 months of down time and 60k to boot.

I think it's great we all share info but when it comes to veterans advertising operations contrary to the POH, not supported by the mooney master CFIs I cringe a bit. There are new flyers on this forum and sometimes in search of the "silver bullet" for great landings but in my opinion doing cockpit gymnastics at a critical phase of flight isn't a best practice.

Again that's a piece of advice for the new guys....you other guys do as you like. Learn how to fly your plane, not use crutches.


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I agree fully, how many airline, professional and military pilots on this forum retract flaps as described in the last phase of landing?

Not all of my landings are perfect, but raising the flaps happens when stopped.

Clarence

[Raptor05121]

On 11/26/2016 at 10:08 PM, Tommy said:

I can see the gear comes up instead of flaps with this technique.

That's not a problem for those of us with early 60's birds.

On 1/3/2009 at 10:37 AM, TurboExec said:

I find when flying solo or with one other passenger I have to put a case of oil in the baggage area to help shift the cg back.  It makes the round out much easier and landings seem to be smoother.

 

The Cherokee 180 I used to rent had two big blocks of concrete in the back luggage compartment. It had 1,100# useful, so that's not an issue, but Cherokee's are very nose-forward CG so putting 100# at the rear datum really helps the landings. I could achieve 90% roll-ons in that plane with those things back there,

22 hours ago, PTK said:

... get away from thinking "flare" and think about the concept of "transition" instead.

 

Sounds a lot like Jason Schappert

[mikerocosm]

Jose,

Thanks for the tip! I'm going to give this a try later this week. It's great to see alternative views and procedures that have the ring of sense offered in this forum. After all, my POH was written 50 years ago, and experience since then has led to many new ways of doing things. Some work for me, some don't. My AOA improved my landing technique, as did what I learned from viewing Don's video disc. If this helps even a little, sometimes, then it's worth keeping in mind.

Thanks again!

[aaronk25]

Keeping full flaps down also shortens roll out as it creates a fair amount of drag. Keeping the flaps up increases landing speed about 4kts and doesn't add any drag on roll out.


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[Yetti]

pulling all the way back on the yoke creates lots of dynamic braking

[Bob - S50]

Here's the real secret to a good landing... a wet runway.  Keeps the tires from grabbing when they touch the pavement.  Maybe a mod that allows us to carry 5 gallons of water that are dumped out just in front of the mains just before touchdown?

Still waiting for the perfect flight even after 43 years of flying.

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

Here's the real secret to a good landing... a wet runway.  Keeps the tires from grabbing when they touch the pavement.  Maybe a mod that allows us to carry 5 gallons of water that are dumped out just in front of the mains just before touchdown?

Are you riding the brakes? 

[Hank]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 9:08 PM, Tommy said:

I can see the gear comes up instead of flaps with this technique.

I hold the throttle to idle, reach out a finger and raise the flaps. To reach the gear switch, I have to let go of the throttle and reach up to the top of the panel. Raising flaps on rollout steals lift from the wing, putting weight on the tires--this will slow you down and make braking more effective, as well as protect you from accidental liftoff in gusty conditions.

Flaps can sneak up while floating in the flare if needed, it's a useful tool to have. But I routinely raise them on the rollout as a brake saver. Keeping the nose up created aerodynamic braking to save those pads, too.

[gsxrpilot]

Back when I was learning to fly, my instructor taught me to retract the flaps after touchdown and before braking as a means to save the tires. He owned the plane and had been through many tires in over 20,000 hours of instructing.  Retracting the flaps takes lift away from the wing and therefore puts more weight on the tires which are then less likely to skid if too much braking is applied. Of course there was no way to confuse Gear and Flaps in a Cherokee. Flying my C, I would use Hank's method of keeping the hand on the throttle and using a finger to raise the flaps.  Now in my K, the flaps switch is almost down on the floor so no confusing it with the gear which is up at the glare shield.

[TheTurtle]

flew into santa paula the other day for the first time.  Was doing hood work with my CFI and he really wanted a Fosters burger so we went from CMA over to SZP.  Tiny little field tucked in behind a hill.  I fast over the numbers and she was floating and floating.  all of a sudden it dropped out of nowhere with a solid landing.  hit the brakes and got off at the end of runway.  After a bunch of WTF happened there my instructor said we were running out of runway so he dumped the flaps.

I must say it did kill the float and saved a go around.  Im still breaking his balls for not saying anything before doing it though.  Got a serious case of monkey butt when it fell out the sky while still nicely above dirty stall speed.

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Hyett6420 said:

At EGTR i could have trailing link gear, air suspension and cushioned seats and it would still bounce all over the bloody place.   Having said that i did learn at the Summit about what my vref SHOULD be, and using that has helped a little.

If I get to England, Ill knock that bounce out of your bloody landings, Andrew! OR, just fly that thing to the Summit next Sept 29th - Oct ! We can work on them then!

Today, I flew the Bravo with a 15G23 direct (80 deg) x wind landing at FA40, used TO flaps vs Full flaps. While I don't dispute no flaps will minimize float, I do not recommend changing configurations immediately prior to touchdown when it is far to easy to just get it right and stabilized on final. This isn't my video, but it gives a bit of perspective of Hidden lake, where once below the tree line, the name of the wind game really changes. The runway is almost as smooth as a goat farm, but not quite.

 

[Tommy]

Personally I think it's pretty dangerous not to have one hand on the yoke and the other on the throttle during the landing at all time once the plane is properly cobfigued. EVEN after you touched down, you still need to prepare to go around. 

One scenario: you landed slightly fast and bounced. Now do you retract the flaps and hoping the bounce stops before prop strikes or go around?

 

 

[Bartman]

Just now, Tommy said:

One scenario: you landed slightly fast and bounced. Now do you retract the flaps and hoping the bounce stops before prop strikes or go around?

 

 

If I bounce and have plenty of runway I give it a shot of power, about 1 second, just to get air flowing over the wings then normal landing. If you bounce a second time your chances of saving it are greatly reduced, and you better go around

If I bounce and runway is short and I'm full flaps and trimmed nose up for landing, then go full power, push HARD on the yoke to prevent stalling nose up and stay in ground effect, and trim nose down quickly, then reduce flaps slowly only when positive rate is guaranteed.

This decision is already made even before the bounce....

I AM NOT advocating dumping flaps as standard procedure and would never try to save a botched landing by dumping flaps on a second attempt.  As a matter of fact I may never dump the flaps again, but by doing it in a controlled environment now I know what it can potentially do for me.  This is not a new technique and has been done for decades in spot landing competitions.

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Personally I think it's pretty dangerous not to have one hand on the yoke and the other on the throttle during the landing at all time once the plane is properly cobfigued. EVEN after you touched down, you still need to prepare to go around. 

One scenario: you landed slightly fast and bounced. Now do you retract the flaps and hoping the bounce stops before prop strikes or go around?

 

If I bounce, a little yoke and if needed a squirt of throttle to catch it, then land again. My normal bounces don't require throttle, just keep the yoke as it is. When I'm down and rolling out, stick out a finger and raise the flaps. Once speed is below 50 mph, ease on the brakes.

Should I bounce high, go around. Should I bounce twice, go around. For me, "go around" means full throttle right now; wait for positive rate of climb on the VSI then raise gear; when clear of obstacles (if any), raise flaps. If more than Takeoff flaps are used, don't raise them all at once . . .

And yes, I had the pleasure of a two-bounce go around at my poorly-lit 3000' long home field, loaded heavy after spending Thanksgiving with the inlaws, at night, toward the taller trees, with a football TFR nearby and a whopping 110-115 hours in my logbook, less than half of it in my Mooney. It wasn't a problem. I figured out the cause the next day:  I was so glad to be home, after flying into the wind over the mountains at night, that I quit flying in the flare. You better believe I started flying the doggone plane after that second bounce!

[aaronk25]

I think some need to trade airplanes and get something new and challenging cause seems liked we're creating problems that don't exist.....

Has a new mooney friend with last weekend and my personal problem was setting in to hard on the mains. Not bad but solid. What is all this floating down the runway non-sense?

If your going to do amateur tricks why not land with the flaps up? It's safer......


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[Raptor05121]

8 hours ago, aaronk25 said:

Keeping full flaps down also shortens roll out as it creates a fair amount of drag.

Retracting the flaps as soon as you are on the ground decreased lift and increases braking effectiveness much more than leaving them down.

[Bob - S50]

21 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Are you riding the brakes? 

Nope.  But the tires are not spinning until you touch down.  The friction between the tires and the pavement has to bring the tire rotation up to a speed equal to your ground speed.  That's something like 0 to 60 in well under a second.  This creates a backward drag force that tends to give a little jerk just as you hear the chirp.  With a wet runway, friction is reduced, spin up happens more slowly, and the jerk is reduced.  Thus a smoother landing.  I learned that from experience from over 13,000 landings at the airlines.

I also figured a good landing actually has three parts:

1. Smooth touchdown.  Obvious.
2. No lateral movement from walking the rudders while you try to stay on centerline.  Passengers don't like being thrown side to side while rolling down the runway.
3. Like braking.  Passengers also don't like eating the seat in front of them when they are thrown forward because the pilot stood on the brakes to make an early turnoff.

Just my opinion of course.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Late to the party.  I completely disagree with this "perfect tip".  I would never "dump" flaps as directed by original poster.  Bad technique.  Can it be done?  Yes.  Should it?  No.

[Andy95W]

29 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Late to the party.  I completely disagree with this "perfect tip".  I would never "dump" flaps as directed by original poster.  Bad technique.  Can it be done?  Yes.  Should it?  No.

I agree with Scott.  

Dumping flaps in the flare is a solution looking for a problem.

[Piloto]

The raise of flat tip was suggested to me about 30 years ago by two experience Mooney pilots flying into short and narrow runways in Canada and in the Bahamas. Where there are gusty crosswind conditions. If yo are landing on calm wind on a 3,000ft runway there is no need to raise the flaps during flare. Curiously one of my friends with a 67F raise the flaps during flare because of lack of powered trim. The stall warning just come up two seconds before touch down on main first with the nose dropping one second later. For a perfect touch down the flaps are to be raised no higher than 5ft above the runway. For an inexperienced Mooney pilot this may be difficult to asses. The added action may be overwhelming too. But if you are landing in short icy runways with gusty crosswinds you will appreciate the technique.

José   

Edited November 30, 2016 by Piloto

[aaronk25]

Wouldnt dragging it in by the prop accomplish the same thing? That is coming across the trees or fence a few knots over stall and chop the power? The lack of wind from the prop would settle it down and that way your going slower and still get added benefit of aerodynamic drag from the flaps on roll out. Especially on icy runways where brake use should be min.


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[MyNameIsNobody]

Baiter...