Whats wrong with this M20F

[ATB]

I am a newly minted pilot and hope to purchase a Mooney in the next few years. I am trying to learn everything I can about the various M20 models.  Like many others, I am currently investigating M20Fs and early M20Js.

So that out of the way, lets play "why hasn't this plane sold".  I'll fill in my newbie impression, hopefully those in the know can correct/provide more info.  Also take a shot at a real world price.  Should be an educational experience for those of us new to Mooney's.

#1 Has been for sale since at least summer when I started poking around trade-a-plane and controller.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F/1967-MOONEY-M20F/1158512.htm

 Pros:

-Garmin 430W

-Stec 30 Autopilot

-Recent overhaul

-Other avionics: 327 transponder, engine monitor, 495 doc

-Updated Panel

 

Cons:

-Needs Paint

-No 201 mods

-Updated panel is not T arrangement

-Unknown interior

-High listed price

Summary:  A decent starter Mooney that needs paint soon. Would be much more desirable as an IFR platform with a better panel layout.  ~$50k?

 

#2 Has been for sale for only a few months.  The broker tried promoting it on the red board and got run off (possibly a bit unfairly) after only a few days

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1967-MOONEY-M20F-EXEC-21/1163039.htm

http://www.skymachines.com/N3272F/index.html

 

Pros:

-201 Mods

-Decent paint/interior

-Stec 50 auto pilot

-Engine monitor/fuel computer

 

Cons

-Gear up landing resulting in engine tear-down

-2 GPSs, neither is modern (aka IFR moving map)

-non-slaved HSI

 

Summary: Top 201 mods already done and serviceable exterior & interior, but avionics updates need to be done asap; at least 8k on a 430W. Damage history keeping it down. No idea on price

[Auburn02]

Does this forum have a running thread to review airplanes on the market? I was just coming here to ask the members' thoughts on a plane and came across this thread.

Knowing what little I know and based on what I'm looking for, I'd say the first is still available because of the price first and foremost, and second the lack of exterior updates. The interior and panel are nice, but the lack of a 201 windshield and any other exterior mods (cowl closure, other seals/fairings) and to a lesser extent the paint are lacking, especially for that price point.

On the second one all I can come up with is what you already mentioned, a past gear up and lack of a modern IFR GPS. But if I had more room in my budget I'd probably be looking at that one pretty closely.

Speaking of my budget and my age (30 next month, wife, no kids for a few more years hopefully), I've been trying to limit myself to looking at Cs and maybe an occasional E or F, but realistically I think I need to keep my purchase price in the low to mid 40s or below if I want this to happen anytime soon. I came across this one the other day, which looks like a nicely updated '65 C with 201 windshield, cowl closure, G430 (not WAAS), King HSI, nicely laid out panel, and 3 bladed prop (read some pros and cons of the 3 blade on a 4 cyl Mooney, but at least it gets rid of the prop hub AD). Only thing I can tell that it's really missing that I would like is an autopilot, but I'm going to need to make sacrifices on some things if I'm going to be realistic with that low 40s budget. No history of damage that I can find, though the logs are missing prior to 1982. Given a solid inspection/annual, I wouldn't be too upset about that.

What do you guys think?

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=1165508

I was pretty excited to find it's registered here in Alabama, but the ad mentions it was flown to San Antonio (listed with All-American).

[Hank]

     There's nothing wrong with a past gear-up if it was all fixed correctly. Most of that will be in the logs. A good mechanic can talk you through them to your satisfaction. Talk to your mechanic about any missing logs, as it can be a problem later.

     Garmin 430 is a great tool, even better with the WAAS upgrade. Help do as much as possible--pulling the interior panels out is a very educational process, and will teach you about the plane. [i learned a lot then, and more with owner-assisted annuals.]

     Our vintage Mooneys are greatly improved with the 201 windshield and cowl closure. Just like panel upgrades, find a plane that already has them.

     My C-model has a 3-blade, with no vibration and no problems. A quick test flight will let you know how it works, and if you like it.

     As many people have said many times, look first for good solid maintenance history, then a good airframe & engine, then look for goodies. Brittain autopilots are not expensive to add, and I like mine. The current backlog there will provide time to prepare. Just be cautious enough on the purchase price so that insurance and hangar/tie down charges still leave funding for transition CFI time and fuel for your own practice and regular flying.

     Good sources for aircraft valuation are MAPA Log [there's an article every other month, with Pre-J's and Moderns alternating], and AOPA's Vref, plus the old-fashioned scanning of ads for comparison.

     Happy hunting, and fly safe!

[Buster1]

ATB,

How are things in Morristown?  I grew up about 20 mins from there.

I think the answer to your question of why the planes haven't sold is the Economy.  I really do.  Both look nice, with your aforementioned pros and cons.  The F with damage and the economy will keep that one on the market for a while.  While I agree that previous damage, if fixed professionally is an okay thing, I personally believe that damage history is a detractor.  I am combing the 231 market and have my eyes on quite a few in there.  There are some that have damage history, even many years ago, that have been on the market for a long time.  The NDH 231s that are out there seem to be moving along decently.

It's an investment.  Some are okay with previous damage, some are not.

[scottfromiowa]

Just thought I'd post regarding gear-up/damage history and three-bladed prop.  I experienced a gear up in my Johnson Bar M20E.  I was flying under instruction (did an hour under the hood) followed by my bi-annual flight review.  After several take-offs/landings and two hours of flying CFI pulled power on downwind mid-field.  She asked what I was going to do and I said I can land on runway...which was NOT my home field and has a displaced area.  I was so focused on the displaced runway and doing a perfect flare...instructor said "beautiful" that I didn't drop gear...Plane sustained prop/nose gear door and center belly skin damage only (and right inward flap hinge).  The 3 blade prop HELD the plane up.  Replaced belly with fiberglass.  Nose gear doors with K doors...new McCaulley prop and majored an 1850 hour engine.  In my opinion the gear up significantly increased the value of my plane....and the 3 blade prop which I love in the M20E prevented more significant damage to the airframe.  REMEMBER THOSE CHECKLISTS AND BAR GRABS ON SHORT FINAL!  There are those that have and those that...

[GeorgePerry]

Call me crazy but I would have sued the instructor. 

[Guest Anonymous]

Quote: GeorgePerry

Call me crazy but I would have sued the instructor. 

[flight2000]

I think this falls in line with the "let's pop the door open on takeoff" routine that I've heard some experience.  Not saying it couldn't happen, but to deliberately do it during takeoff just to see the pilot handle it is way off base.  What are some instructors thinking??? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the instructor at least failed in not being the SIC and providing a secondary set of eyes for the checklist instead of being along for the ride in an emergancy situation they initiated.  Isn't the basic tenant of flight instructing to keep a vigilant eye on the student???

Brian

[ATB]

Quote: Buster1

ATB,

How are things in Morristown?  I grew up about 20 mins from there.

I think the answer to your question of why the planes haven't sold is the Economy.  I really do.  Both look nice, with your aforementioned pros and cons.  The F with damage and the economy will keep that one on the market for a while.  While I agree that previous damage, if fixed professionally is an okay thing, I personally believe that damage history is a detractor.  I am combing the 231 market and have my eyes on quite a few in there.  There are some that have damage history, even many years ago, that have been on the market for a long time.  The NDH 231s that are out there seem to be moving along decently.

It's an investment.  Some are okay with previous damage, some are not.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: SagemGuy

 Yep, I think I would try that out too, at least as far as an initial session with an aviation attorney.  Now that would really be one for the legal types to sort out.  Does dual put the instructor as PIC? ... and does the biannual do anything to change that status?

Either way, pulling a stunt like that after two hours of dual (some under the hood) is not very smart, and would call the judgement of the CFI into question.

George, am I crazy -- or does that avatar show you leaving?

 

RFB

[carusoam]

ATB,

I believe there are a couple of flying clubs out of KMMU. 

I was just at the American Flyers school, talking about Mooneys (of course).  One of the instructors mentioned that there is a mooney on the ramp ("west tie-down area") that is club owned.  From the distance we were at, it looks like a late 60's M20G (3 windows on the side).

I was too busy finishing my IR to follow-up.  Sorry, I don't have any more detail, but if you are interested I can poke around a little more.

 

- Anthony -

[flight2000]

Must be an Air Force thing.  My primary flight instructor was an AF Reserve guy and he was everything I expected and more.  Very professional in every aspect.  Can't say that about some I've had lately.

Loved the pics you just posted.  I always enjoy seeing the look on my kids faces when we go flying.  My youngest doesn't enjoy it as much for some reason.  Not sure what's wrong with him....

Brian

[ATB]

Yep, its a G and based on pictures on the club's site, it has a rather outdated panel.  Club is skywagn.  Although I trained in a DA-20, am going to start my IR in a DA-40, and want to buy a Mooney eventually, I am looking at the 150 Aero club at MMU (they have 2 172s and 1 182RG).  The 172s look relatively modern and the costs are reasonable.  Hope to be in a club for a bit to learn about ownership.

Now if anyone in the area was interested in a partnership and didnt mind leaving an F or early model J out in the weather...

As for your IR training, are you signed up with AF or just interviewing them?  If you haven't picked a school yet, I highly recomend Best In Flight, particularly if you want a program tailored to you.  I got my PPL after only 43 hours after training with BIF this summer.  Ask for Robert (owner and head instructor).

http://www.bestinflight.net/

Quote: carusoam

ATB,

I believe there are a couple of flying clubs out of KMMU. 

I was just at the American Flyers school, talking about Mooneys (of course).  One of the instructors mentioned that there is a mooney on the ramp ("west tie-down area") that is club owned.  From the distance we were at, it looks like a late 60's M20G (3 windows on the side).

I was too busy finishing my IR to follow-up.  Sorry, I don't have any more detail, but if you are interested I can poke around a little more.

 

- Anthony -

[ATB]

This one just showed on on conroller this week.

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20F/1970-MOONEY-M20F/1166155.htm

 

201 mods, 530W, 330, even a 55x autopilot.  Obvious issue is the TBO engine, possible damage history.  Is this a $70 plane? $60k?

[flight2000]

As they say, avionics are worth only about half of the actual cost to put them in.  With an engine that is now past TBO, even with good compressions, it is going to cost you another 20-30K in the very near future.  Bet it sits for awhile unless he drops the price.  After reading the listing again, looks like he's trying to recoup what he paid for it before the market went totally nuts and south for the winter.

Just my .01 for today...

Brian

[Dan]

I saw the F that is just past TBO come up last week as well. If you think about it, if you get for 60K and then drop another 25K/30K for overhaul,  You are at 85/90K. What can you buy for that price, or a little bit more. I think this one will sit for a while also.

Dan