'67 M20F Mods / upgrades

[mschmuff]

It's been a while since I have been on here but the new Mooney has been great and I have updated a bunch of stuff on it. Alternator conversion, high speed starter, LEDs all around and cleaned up the dash wiring / mic jacks, etc. This plane is awesome - so happy I'm outta that cherokee!!

I was hoping to get some insight on a couple of "upgrades" from the people who know - that would be you guys!

1. I tear through oil about 1 quart every 3.5 hours after the first 6 hours after oil change. Is an air oil separator worth the install? I change the oil between 25 and 30 hours and the filter between 50 and 60 hours with Phillips 20-50.

2. I fly the plane to work and we are a 10a-10p shift at this base so I am flying a lot at night. I was considering the oil cooler relo and 2nd landing light/taxi light mod. I already changed out the current landing light for the LED PAR46.

3. Coming into winter I definitely need some type of engine heater. Do I go with the $30 stick to the bottom of the oil pan or the Tanis for big $$$??

Thanks for your input - love this website!

And for the guys I have talked to through messaging - just an update...I finally got that transfer and am back at home in Maryland flying for MedSTAR!!

[garytex]

It's easy to love an F

Is the oil going out the breather or past the rings? How full do you run your crankcase? If you are running it at 8 qts, just back up your fill to 7-6 qts, and consumption will fall. What is the irritation factor for cleaning the belly. The guys that have the separators are mostly very happy.

[jetdriven]

I agree with Gary if the oil is at 8 quarts its going to put a lot on the belly. If you are going through a quart in 3.5 hours with the oil level at 6 quarts, then you have an engine problem, and covering it up with an air/oil separator is not the answer.

Those dipstick heaters are worthless and I never heard a justification for heating the oil and not the engine. With X/C the oil is thin when cold anyways.

Sticking a heating pad on the bottom of the engine only heats the intake plenum and will do you no good. The oil sump is above the intake plenum another 4". A good propane heater with a hose on it can preheat a Lycoming in 30 minutes. You heat the case, the cylinders, all of it as well.

[rbridges]

mine blew through a quart in 5-10 hours when I filled it to 7 qts. When it reaches 6 qts, it holds steady.

[N601RX]

I installed the Lasar oil cooler relocation when I overhauled my engine. One of the reasons I did it was I didn't like the oil hoses that close to the exhaust. Its also easier to get to and keep an eye on in the new location. Your also gain a couple of pounds of usefull load. The only problem I had with it was that although I had an approved oi cooler, it was a little wider than the original and I had some clearance issues.

[mschmuff]

Any idea what the engine problem may be because I keep it at 6qts and am definitely going through 3.5qts per hour. All compressions are good - 75/76/78/78. It does have chrome cylinders - don't know if that makes a difference.

[sreid]

Any idea what the engine problem may be because I keep it at 6qts and am definitely going through 3.5qts per hour. All compressions are good - 75/76/78/78. It does have chrome cylinders - don't know if that makes a difference.

Does your oil turn black quickly?

[M20F-1968]

Chrome cylinders will take 2-3 times what it usually takes to break in. If you only have a few hours on the engine, it may not be broken in as of yet.

Continue to follow the break-in recommendations until oil consumption decreases.

John Breda

[Apexheli]

Save some money for now. If you have chrom cylinders and high oil consumption, look out. They probably didn't get broken in properly and you will be looking to do some work. Just had 4 overhauled chroms from previous owner, 75 hrs since install and same oil consumption. #4 cylinder broke oil ring and both compression rings. Went from 1 qt every 3.5-4 hrs to 2 qts every hour. Don't want to scare you but that chrom is junk unless they get broken in just right. I put on 4 cerminil cylinders and oil is back to 1 qt every 8 hrs. Your results may vary.

[mschmuff]

Yes - oil turns black quickly.... The engine has 200hrs on it but the overhaul was done 12years ago and it was it's first overhaul.

[KSMooniac]

i agree about the concern of the chrome cylinders and lack of or improper break-in. You're blowing combustion byproducts past the rings and pressurizing the crankcase. You can tolerate it, or take the cylinders off. I'm not sure if chrome can be re-honed or not.

The Reiff preheater is a consensus favorite as it heats the cylinders evenly with bands around them, as well as the sump.

[scottfromiowa]

UGGhhh. I wish you well on that oil issue. I have a bad feeling there. I installed an XEVision HID landing light. LOVE IT!. I use a block heater AND a small ceramic heater with flex tube. I insert the tubing into the cowl flap and turn on if I am going to fly the next day. Works great in COLD IOWA. The HID light puts out a LOT of light for less $ than the conversion you are thinking about....

Good luck,

Scott

[M20F]

I recommend

The Reiff preheater is a consensus favorite

Second this. In regard to oil burn put in six quarts next change and then report back results, not enough information to advise otherwise.

[scottfromiowa]

First you stated 1 quart/3.5 hours and then 3.5 quarts/hour...was this a phrasing error or is the consumption THAT high?

[rbridges]

First you stated 1 quart/3.5 hours and then 3.5 quarts/hour...was this a phrasing error or is the consumption THAT high?

I assume it's an error. That would be a huge amount of oil.

[N201MKTurbo]

I flew a 67F for 4500 hours and three engines. The only time I had oil consumption that high something was broken. I would at least have the cylinders removed re-honed and replace the pistons if they were not replaced at the last overhaul along with a new set of rings. I am an A&P and haven’t paid for repair labor for the past 25 years, but the parts for that would be about $2500.00, It would take about 6 hours to remove the four cylinders and about 4 hours to replace them, barring any other squawks found in the process.

[MagicCarpet]

My bird used to burn 1 quart every 3.5hrs. I keep the level between 6 and 7 quarts. Higher than that blows overboard. I reduced the oil consumption by making the the oil breather hose longer, putting an extra loop in it. A sharp A&P showed me that one. This prevents any oil from directly overflowing out the vent tube. The extra loop fits nicely on top of the other things. My oil consumption dropped to 2.5 every 3.5 hours, which is normal for my bird. Oil analysis from the lab shows normal range and compression ratios are still excellent, and plugs never foul (I lean on taxi and at long idle).

Hope this helps.

[jetdriven]

i agree about the concern of the chrome cylinders and lack of or improper break-in. You're blowing combustion byproducts past the rings and pressurizing the crankcase. You can tolerate it, or take the cylinders off. I'm not sure if chrome can be re-honed or not.

The Reiff preheater is a consensus favorite as it heats the cylinders evenly with bands around them, as well as the sump.

I wonder about the effectiveness of the preheaters in an IO-360 Mooney. The cylinders are pretty loose to begin with, and AFAIK cylinder wall wear and scuffing on a cold start isnt a major concern. I would also like to know how two 2x5" 100W heaters epoxied to the bottom of the engine is going to appreciably heat anything, the oil sump is ABOVE the induction sump. The crankcase is ABOVE that...

The heaters will heat the air in the intake manifold plenum, but the oil is 4" above that. You want the case warm to preserve the bearing clearances. Forced air or a lightbulb will do it, but will the Reiff?

[M20F]

I have Reif Turbo XP with the oil cooler option on my M20F (http://www.reiffpreheat.com/product.htm) with a Kenon Cowl cover. After about 4hrs it is about 70 degrees in the cowl with all parts warm to touch and the oil dripping off the dipstick. Works very good in the Chicago winter and in areas even further north.

[KSMooniac]

Aluminum conducts heat very well, and I'd expect the Reiff system to do a great job at heating everything. It would be interesting to test it though vs. a light bulb or forced air. I made my own chintzy preheater using a ceramic heater with a scroll type fan, and some ducting with duct tape. I put the output duct into one cowl flap, and another duct on the other cowl flap to return the air back to the heater to make a closed loop system. Cowl plugs are in too of course, and it does a pretty decent job given enough time. A Reiff system with a remote switch would be my preference, though, but thus far I've been too cheap to spring for that since we get some moderate days in the winter here, or I can make time to plug the system in a few hours before launching.

[Hank]

I have the simple epoxied-on preheater in my C, and all it takes is an hour. In freezing weather, she is very difficult to start and sometimes will not; plug in for 45-60 mins, and it turns over faster and fires right up.

You tell me if the little 100W heaters glued on so far away from everything important actually do anything or not. Yes, I've plugged in parked on the ramp while traveling, with a borrowed extension cord, because she wouldn't start up, and have gone merrily on my way an hour later. Now I travel with a 100' cord in cold weather and have fewer problems.

[danb35]

The heaters will heat the air in the intake manifold plenum, but the oil is 4" above that. You want the case warm to preserve the bearing clearances. Forced air or a lightbulb will do it, but will the Reiff?

100 watts of heat epoxied directly to the aluminum sump will heat the rest of the engine much more quickly than a 100-watt light bulb hanging in the air near the engine. Aluminum is a pretty good conductor of heat, while air is an exceptionally poor conductor. If you have other heaters on the engine as well (cylinder bands or head heaters), so much the better, but even just a sump heater would be much more efficient at heating than the light bulb.

[mschmuff]

Thanks for all of the input here....I definitely think I have a cylinder issue whether it be that they were not broken in properly or a craked/broken ring, oil seal or something. I just flew from DC to SC - 5 hours round trip in 2 days and went through 3qrts of oil. I am 15 hours from my last oil change which ironically I didn't need to add oil until 6 hours. I go into annual this wednesday and most likely will start pulling cylinders after the compression check. I did pick up a tanis heater for it but am holding off on any other upgrades until I figure this oil consumption issue out. ....oh yeah, to add insult to injury I got with my mechanic last week to make sure we had everything ready to do the annual and it turns out I already have an air/oil seperator....and am still going though that much oil.

On a better note, the flight to SC was great, 6500ft and 7500ft 24"MP 2400RPM - 175kts southbound, 165kts northbound.