Yetti Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 Does it come with an Annual Inspection? Seems that Lasar is just a parts distributor. are they going to share some of this money with the Factory that still has the Type Certificate. Holding the Type Certificate gives the Factory the ability to take Off the Shelf items and stick a part number on it and not have to do the STC process. Strange.
MikeOH Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: But importantly it shows that LASAR has no cash to invest in supply chain. They are using Owner's cash. BINGO! 3 1
Tom F Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 I’m hoping we will be getting more details and the term and conditions about the program soon. What may be missing here is some context. Lasar took over the Mooney Factory Parts program in July. That’s been documented here in other forums. Mooney is basically bankrupt again and was within weeks of shutting down in July. Laser stepped forward and is covering the Kerrville expenses including payroll for the Mooney employees. Laser put this program together to raise needed capital to fund the purchase of Mooney in its entirety, to produce inventory for Mooney airplanes and to modernize the Kerrville facility with equipment that will hopefully help contain parts costs. It’s a huge undertaking. The alternative is Mooney is gone. I’d fairly certain if Mooney disappears the value of every one of our airframes diminishes, insurance cost increases, if it’s even offered, and the likelihood of our planes being AOG increases significantly. I have seen enough of the Mooney finances to know the options are extremely limited. As I understand it, current ownership has thrown in the towel and are done funding Mooney. I, other than being a Mooney owner, have zero stake in Lasar or Mooney. I, like many others want to be part of a sustainable solution to the financial issues that have plagued Mooney for most of its existence. I’m hopeful Brett and his team at Lasar will be responding to the issues in this thread. In the meantime I looking forward to suggestions to move Mooney on to the next chapter.” 1
tim417 Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 I get that Lasar is trying to save Mooney and this is good background. However, the marketing language and apparent lack of transparency and candor about what the actual plans are is off putting. And $250/mo is not an inconsequential amount of money. .
Mark89114 Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 They must have hired an Ivy-League MBA consultant to come up with this plan. (that is not a compliment) 3
Justin Schmidt Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 With all the "marketing " and hoopla and lack of explanation and transparency, this seems very similar to a pump and dump. 1 2
1980Mooney Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 1 hour ago, Echo said: Thoughts? My thoughts are NOPE. Ahh come on…..you will miss out on those “backstage moments at Oshkosh and Sun’N-Fun”. And “Mooney swag”. After all, that is what keeps your plane in the air!….Right?! 4
1980Mooney Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tom F said: What may be missing here is some context.….. Laser stepped forward and is covering the Kerrville expenses including payroll for the Mooney employees. Laser put this program together to raise needed capital to fund the purchase of Mooney in its entirety, to produce inventory for Mooney airplanes and to modernize the Kerrville facility with equipment that will hopefully help contain parts costs. It’s a huge undertaking. The alternative is Mooney is gone. I’d fairly certain if Mooney disappears the value of every one of our airframes diminishes, insurance cost increases, if it’s even offered, and the likelihood of our planes being AOG increases significantly. I have seen enough of the Mooney finances to know the options are extremely limited. As I understand it, current ownership has thrown in the towel and are done funding Mooney. I, other than being a Mooney owner, have zero You are right - context is missing. Where in all its transparency has LASAR announced that it is trying to acquire Mooney International in its entirety? Maybe I have been asleep. Please point me to the discussion/statement. And please elaborate on how LASAR is covering the payroll of Mooney International which is a separate legal entity - cash infusion by prepayment of future parts orders? A loan? Edited October 17 by 1980Mooney
1980Mooney Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 50 minutes ago, tim417 said: I get that Lasar is trying to save Mooney and this is good background. However, the marketing language and apparent lack of transparency and candor about what the actual plans are is off putting. And $250/mo is not an inconsequential amount of money. . BTW - Did you notice that $250/month does not get you any priority for parts. You put your order in at the back of the line just like everyone else. If you look at the plans/tiers, only the Gold $500/month gives you “Prioriy Parts Allocation”
Yetti Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 2 hours ago, Tom F said: I’m hoping we will be getting more details and the term and conditions about the program soon. What may be missing here is some context. Lasar took over the Mooney Factory Parts program in July. That’s been documented here in other forums. Mooney is basically bankrupt again and was within weeks of shutting down in July. Laser stepped forward and is covering the Kerrville expenses including payroll for the Mooney employees. Laser put this program together to raise needed capital to fund the purchase of Mooney in its entirety, to produce inventory for Mooney airplanes and to modernize the Kerrville facility with equipment that will hopefully help contain parts costs. It’s a huge undertaking. The alternative is Mooney is gone. I’d fairly certain if Mooney disappears the value of every one of our airframes diminishes, insurance cost increases, if it’s even offered, and the likelihood of our planes being AOG increases significantly. I have seen enough of the Mooney finances to know the options are extremely limited. As I understand it, current ownership has thrown in the towel and are done funding Mooney. I, other than being a Mooney owner, have zero stake in Lasar or Mooney. I, like many others want to be part of a sustainable solution to the financial issues that have plagued Mooney for most of its existence. I’m hopeful Brett and his team at Lasar will be responding to the issues in this thread. In the meantime I looking forward to suggestions to move Mooney on to the next chapter.” I would suggest people would part with dollars quicker with an owners owned factory. Most of the value of the factory is in the dies and jigs and engineering drawings. Secondary value is in the MSC network. Probably want to "sell" value in those two items. The value of an owner being able to use the factory to produce parts would be huge. Bend a control surface, just pop over to the factory and stamp one out. Ownership loyalty program could also include Annual Inspection at the factory. During the Annual Inspection Major Components could be exchanged for new. This would build a demand for parts and an inventory. Not a McKinsey Consultant. 3
GeeBee Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 2 hours ago, Tom F said: Laser stepped forward and is covering the Kerrville expenses including payroll for the Mooney employees. Laser put this program together to raise needed capital to fund the purchase of Mooney in its entirety, to produce inventory for Mooney airplanes and to modernize the Kerrville facility with equipment that will hopefully help contain parts costs. It’s a huge undertaking. The alternative is Mooney is gone. Without a debt or equity position, I don't see the value here. I'm not prepared to give money to Lasar to bail out the old Mooney owners who failed, newsletters and parts priority not withstanding. Better to let the thing liquidate in Chapter 7 and Lasar form a new company to buy the liquidation. It could be purchased cheaper than bailing out Jonny Pollack, his minions and the Chinese. The reality is, even if all the long body owners bought in, I don't see even 1 million being raised and to give it to the previous owners? No. They should all lose their equity, be removed entirely and a new owner use this capital to start anew. Give me that scenario and I will invest. I will say this right now. Do this plan and I will stroke a check for 10K tomorrow for shares. I will not pay a cent to buy out the old shareholders. This does not have to be complicated. 1
1980Mooney Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 1 hour ago, Tom F said: I’m hoping we will be getting more details and the term and conditions about the program soon. What may be missing here is some context. Lasar took over the Mooney Factory Parts program in July. That’s been documented here in other forums. Mooney is basically bankrupt again and was within weeks of shutting down in July. Laser stepped forward and is covering the Kerrville expenses including payroll for the Mooney employees. Laser put this program together to raise needed capital to fund the purchase of Mooney in its entirety, to produce inventory for Mooney airplanes and to modernize the Kerrville facility with equipment that will hopefully help contain parts costs. It’s a huge undertaking. The alternative is Mooney is gone. I’d fairly certain if Mooney disappears the value of every one of our airframes diminishes, insurance cost increases, if it’s even offered, and the likelihood of our planes being AOG increases significantly. I have seen enough of the Mooney finances to know the options are extremely limited. As I understand it, current ownership has thrown in the towel and are done funding Mooney. I, other than being a Mooney owner, have zero stake in Lasar or Mooney. I, like many others want to be part of a sustainable solution to the financial issues that have plagued Mooney for most of its existence. I’m hopeful Brett and his team at Lasar will be responding to the issues in this thread. In the meantime I looking forward to suggestions to move Mooney on to the next chapter.” I know you are a recent Mooney owner. I know history is not popular with most but there are so many just plain wrong assumptions. Some of us have owned our Mooney long enough to see Mooney go through two (2) bankruptcies and a five (5) year period where the factory was completely shut down - no parts, zero, zilch, nada. You think they are going to “modernize the Kerrville facility with equipment that will hopefully contain parts costs”? AGAIN? AGAIN? The volumes are tiny. Read the Parts Rumor “ topic
toto Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 2 hours ago, Tom F said: I’d fairly certain if Mooney disappears the value of every one of our airframes diminishes, insurance cost increases, if it’s even offered, and the likelihood of our planes being AOG increases significantly. There are a lot of airplanes flying today that have no lifeline to their original manufacturer, but they have insurance and parts and healthy resale value. It’s scary to think of the factory being gone, but that’s a reality of GA aircraft ownership since the turn of the century. Cessna and Piper made zero SEP aircraft for ten years. Cessna is now Textron and Piper is owned by a Bahraini organization. Cirrus was seriously on the ropes for a long time and is now largely owned by a Chinese org. And that’s to say nothing of the many smaller manufacturers that have come and gone but still have lots of flying examples on FlightAware every day. Don’t stress. Mooney will be around in one way or another far longer than any of us will be 4
DCarlton Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 6 minutes ago, toto said: Cirrus was seriously on the ropes for a long time and is now largely owned by a Chinese org. Oh swell. Where have I been? I missed a memo. I didn't realize the majority owner of Cirrus was now Chinese (AVIC). For the record, I don't care how successful they become. I now have zero interest in ever owning a Cirrus. We have to find a way to stop allowing this to happen.
NickG Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 Interesting discussion. Which parts on my Ovation would likely become Unobtanium and ground the aircraft? Which parts couldn't be repaired? Obviously, I'm thinking of parts such as cowls etc but wondering where the greatest exposure is on a more modern Mooney? I had to buy salvage wing sight fuel gauges from Germany to replace mine (at a ridiculous cost) but that wouldn't AOG the plane if I couldn't find one right away.
1980Mooney Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 51 minutes ago, toto said: There are a lot of airplanes flying today that have no lifeline to their original manufacturer, but they have insurance and parts and healthy resale value. It’s scary to think of the factory being gone, but that’s a reality of GA aircraft ownership since the turn of the century. Cessna and Piper made zero SEP aircraft for ten years. Cessna is now Textron and Piper is owned by a Bahraini organization. Cirrus was seriously on the ropes for a long time and is now largely owned by a Chinese org. And that’s to say nothing of the many smaller manufacturers that have come and gone but still have lots of flying examples on FlightAware every day. Don’t stress. Mooney will be around in one way or another far longer than any of us will be 31 minutes ago, NickG said: Interesting discussion. Which parts on my Ovation would likely become Unobtanium and ground the aircraft? Which parts couldn't be repaired? Obviously, I'm thinking of parts such as cowls etc but wondering where the greatest exposure is on a more modern Mooney? I had to buy salvage wing sight fuel gauges from Germany to replace mine (at a ridiculous cost) but that wouldn't AOG the plane if I couldn't find one right away. No different than the issues faced by owners of Grumman, Commander, Bellanca, Aerostar, etc. I am sure they get grounded from time to time. The former companies/legal entities that produced aircraft were dissolved and assets were sold to form "parts only" companies without the baggage of the former companies. Home - Bellanca Aircraft, Inc. Aerostar Aircraft I General Aviation – Affordable Aircraft Superiority HOME | commanderaircraft FletchAir - Parts for American, American General, Grumman-American, Gulfstream-American
KSMooniac Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 The biggest risk going forward in terms of difficult factory-only parts IMO would be control surface skins to fix hangar rash and hail. They are stamped out using the factory dies and presses. Less often would be wing or fuselage skins. Fiberglass (or carbon) cowls can be fixed in the field with a skilled technician, although I believe the factory missed a tremendous opportunity to sell upgraded composite cowls to J & K owners, and perhaps M/R/S owners as well using their molds. Beyond that are the unobtanium ducts and landing gear bits that they don't make themselves anyway. Eventually I would expect a new vendor to reverse-engineer critical parts and sell them to us without the legacy burden of the Mooney company. It will be sad, but the market will react. (See the recent V-tail skin saga in the Beech world) I have said before that the current value in the Kerrville operation/factory space is the Production Certificate that enables serial production of airworthy parts, which includes the policies & procedures and Quality system. Doubly-so in a low-cost & biz-friendly area of the US! If I were running Mooney, I would have been aggressively pursuing 3rd party fabrication contracts for aerospace production and even adding capability that hasn't been used for Mooney production if it made sense to make money. It is far easier to add capability under an existing PC than it is to start from scratch. UAVs have been in production for long enough that I wish Mooney would've approached those major manufacturers to get on board, and the upcoming eVTOL/UAM/etc markets are going nuts with all kinds of ridiculous investments and Mooney seems to have missed that wave as well. IMO, manufacturing parts & assemblies for either or both of those markets could have kept the factory humming and the lights on, and that would in turn have allowed the occasional run of Mooney parts now and then when needed. If I were really dreaming, perhaps some of those 3rd party lines could justify the expense of automated production machines that could eventually be ported over to Mooney production, but that is a very, very long shot. It will never make sense to automate any of the M20 line just on the demand of that (mostly obsolete) airframe, nor will it make sense to off-shore production either. I don't see how a very under-capitalized LASAR can effectively do anything with the factory in Kerrville when they cannot even get their own STC/PMA parts back in production after moving to Oregon. Collecting a little bit of money from the fleet in advance is unlikely to move the needle much on that front, I'm afraid. 3
Parker_Woodruff Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 2 minutes ago, KSMooniac said: Less often would be wing or fuselage skins A lot of wing skins needed for happenings around the airport and bird strikes. Mooney needed the M10T done right the first time at the leading half of the recent training boom. It's an absolute shame this was not accomplished. The economies of scale existed in the market demand. 3
IvanP Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 The assurance plan sounds like an attempt to quickly generate positive cash flow with little or nothing to be given in return. Let's assume that about 1,000 owners would find this proposition interesting enough to commit to the basic plan of $200/mo, then you will have 200k/month flowing in the Lasar coffers wthout actually doing anything of substance or shipping any parts. Not a bad plan for Lasar. Is it sustainable? Whio knows? Benefits for owners???
Rick Junkin Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 (edited) The whole pitch feels premature to me. My impression after reading through what LASAR has released is that they are still at the "back of a napkin" stage in this project but decided to put it out where people can see it to garner interest. Unfortunately they haven't presented anything detailed enough that we would regard as tangible value in which to be interested. There have been a number of threads here about pooling resources to do group orders of high demand parts in quantity but I can't recall that I've seen any of them be successful. I'm happy to stand corrected if folks have done it. LASAR apparently did it with the no-back springs on their own dime (as far as I know). If that is what this scheme is really all about, generating the up-front cash for more cost effective parts production, it would be nice if they were able to just state it clearly that way. Still, I would want to see a stronger value proposition than solely parts availability to warrant the annual subscription fee. Does LASAR have a presence here on MS? EDIT: I answered my own question (duh) @LASAR Edited October 17 by Rick Junkin added LASAR call-out 1
1980Mooney Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 3 hours ago, Tom F said: Mooney is basically bankrupt again and was within weeks of shutting down in July.....As I understand it, current ownership has thrown in the towel and are done funding.. .... I, like many others want to be part of a sustainable solution to the financial issues that have plagued Mooney for most of its existence. I agree with you completely on these points. I don't think US Financial LLC ever had any intention of funding. They were looking for a quick flip - pump and dump 1 hour ago, GeeBee said: Without a debt or equity position, I don't see the value here. I'm not prepared to give money to Lasar to bail out the old Mooney owners who failed, newsletters and parts priority not withstanding. Better to let the thing liquidate in Chapter 7 and Lasar form a new company to buy the liquidation. It could be purchased cheaper than bailing out Jonny Pollack, his minions and the Chinese. The reality is, even if all the long body owners bought in, I don't see even 1 million being raised and to give it to the previous owners? No. They should all lose their equity, be removed entirely and a new owner use this capital to start anew. Give me that scenario and I will invest. I will say this right now. Do this plan and I will stroke a check for 10K tomorrow for shares. I will not pay a cent to buy out the old shareholders. This does not have to be complicated. Spot on. Buying the company means "bailing out the owners" - coming to terms on a price for equity (cash that goes into the owners pocket) and assuming the LIABILITIES. The liabilities are the debt, outstanding obligations that are unfulfilled on balance sheet and off and the liability on everything and planes made in the last 18 years. Bankruptcy (Chapter 7) is the best course to separate the assets from the liabilities. And the best chance to create a self standing parts only business that is viable as @Tom Fand others hope. That is exactly what Belanca, Commander, Aerostar, FletchAir (Tiger/Gumman) and others have done. 1
Tom F Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 1 hour ago, DCarlton said: Oh swell. Where have I been? I missed a memo. I didn't realize the majority owner of Cirrus was now Chinese (AVIC). For the record, I don't care how successful they become. I now have zero interest in ever owning a Cirrus. We have to find a way to stop allowing this to happen. And they still have parts availability issues like us, Piper and Beech. This is no doubt about factory parts but it is also about engineering, documentation and certifications. Mooney makes factory parts but they also hold the key to many OEM parts that have been backordered for years due to a lack of capital. Many of these parts will not render your airframe AOG, but what if they do?? It sounds like some of you like chasing parts, more power to you, but I’m not crazy about spending all my time chasing used parts with no paperwork.
PeteMc Posted October 17 Author Report Posted October 17 11 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: I think you pay an additional $6,000 less any discount. Yea, I was sort of being facetious.
Tom F Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 1 minute ago, 1980Mooney said: I agree with you completely on these points. I don't think US Financial LLC ever had any intention of funding. They were looking for a quick flip - pump and dump Spot on. Buying the company means "bailing out the owners" - coming to terms on a price for equity (cash that goes into the owners pocket) and assuming the LIABILITIES. The liabilities are the debt, outstanding obligations that are unfulfilled on balance sheet and off and the liability on everything and planes made in the last 18 years. Bankruptcy (Chapter 7) is the best course to separate the assets from the liabilities. And the best chance to create a self standing parts only business that is viable as @Tom Fand others hope. That is exactly what Belanca, Commander, Aerostar, FletchAir (Tiger/Gumman) and others have done. I’m not versed in bankruptcy law, but if it’s that easy somebody may have an opportunity to own Mooney through bankruptcy. Good luck with the FAA, I’m fairly certain the money they’d save in CH7 would be eclipsed in what you’re going to need to get FAA certifications back. But once again I’ve never been through bankruptcy, but I’m sure there may be a bankruptcy attorney in this group who might shed some light on it.
Tom F Posted October 17 Report Posted October 17 5 hours ago, Yetti said: Does it come with an Annual Inspection? Seems that Lasar is just a parts distributor. are they going to share some of this money with the Factory that still has the Type Certificate. Holding the Type Certificate gives the Factory the ability to take Off the Shelf items and stick a part number on it and not have to do the STC process. Strange. They’re under contract to purchase Mooney in its entirety.
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