Looking for Advice – Considering Purchase of 1964 Mooney M20C as a Low-Time Pilot

[Fernie]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently exploring the purchase of a 1964 Mooney M20C and would really appreciate some input from experienced owners and pilots here.

A bit about me:

I'm a student pilot with 131 logged hours. I recently passed my PPL written exam, but I haven’t flown in about 3 years. I started flying at 13, but since I was only flying about once every two weeks, I’d often forget what I learned between lessons, which explains the high hour count without a certificate. I plan to finish my PPL in the aircraft I purchase and then continue on through instrument and eventually commercial ratings. 

The plane I'm looking at:

1964 Mooney M20C

Turbo normalized

Multiple speed mods (201 windshield, yokes, spinner, wingtip extensions, etc.)

New Garmin 350C audio panel, USB ports, upgraded COM radio

One-piece belly, brake caliper rotation, wing root fairings, and more

It looks well cared for and is priced at $115K

My plan:

I’d like to base it out of Concord, CA (CCR) near to UC berkeley. 

I plan to finish my PPL in it with a CFI who has Mooney experience.

My brother will also be training in the same plane (he’s just beginning flight training)

After that, I’ll use it for XC building, IFR training, and commuting between NorCal and SoCal.

Long-term goal: own the plane for at least 3-5 years, possibly more.

With two people flying it consistently, I believe we’ll be able to justify ownership over rental in the long run

The numbers:

Initial Cash: 

Down Payment (15%): $17,250

Pre-buy Inspection: $1,500

FAA Registration: $5

Escrow Fee: $500

Title Search Fee: $150

Total: $19,405

Annual Fixed Costs:

Insurance: $5,000

Hangar: $7800

Annual Inspection: $2,500

Maintenance Buffer: $3,000

Unexpected Repairs Reserve: $2,000

Total: $20,300 + Loan payments

My concerns:

1. Is it realistic to finish PPL in an M20C as a low-time pilot with proper instruction?

2. How does the M20C behave for someone getting back into the cockpit after 3 years?

3. What are the major items I should look out for during pre-buy on a 1964 model with lots of mods?

4. Any red flags when buying a turbo normalized M20C vs. stock?

5. Are my financial projections reasonable? Any areas I’m underestimating?

6. Any recommendations for Mooney-experienced CFIs or trustworthy mechanics in the Bay Area?

Thank you so much!!!!!!

 

[Hank]

I bought my M20-C five weeks after finishing my PPL. As long as you stay in Student Mode and study / learn about the Mooney, it should be alright. Be too casual, go out with a CFI with little to ni Mooney experience and you will have trouble. 

Point:  getting insurance for a Mooney as a student pilot will be difficult. 

Point:  student #2 needs to be landing well every time before he tries to land the Mooney. See above about insurance. 

I skipped over the Financials, due to the insurance bit and the way hangar rents vary across the country. Long term, I'm pretty close to 9 gph fuel, but prices on that vary a lot, too. Oil change every 50 hours; annual inspection every 12 months; pitot static inspection every 24 months; if it has GPS, add in data updates every 28 days.

But it's fun and rewarding if you are serious about learning, otherwise it will.bite like an angry snake.

Have fun  and fly like your life depends upon it, because it does.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Fernie said:

Are my financial projections reasonable?

I think these are low:

Pre-buy Inspection: $1,500
Insurance: $5,000
Annual Inspection: $2,500

[MikeOH]

Point of reference: I spend between $14K and $20K per year for around 75 hours of operation on my M20F.  So, your total without financing is probably a good starting point.  But @Fly Boomer is correct, your insurance (as a low time pilot) is low, and annuals are going to run closer to $3,000 just for the INSPECTION; needed repairs (there will be) is going to add to that.

IMHO, your premise that you will come out ahead of renting is likely false.  If you can afford to own, it beats the hell out of renting but I don't think you are going to save money.

If you've been out of flying for a bit I'd recommend renting, at least until your landings are decent.  Again, insurance may be eye-watering...best to check FIRST.  Contact @Parker_Woodruff

[Parker_Woodruff]

Finish private cert prior to buying Mooney (for a lot of reasons).  Insurance for a student pilot in a Mooney is almost impossible in California.

[TaildraggerPilot]

Finding out what you don’t know about what you don’t know, in a Mooney, is a tall order indeed. 

[AndreiC]

You never mentioned the three most important numbers for the plane you are looking at: SMOH, TTAF, and how many hours it was flown per year in the last 4-5 years. Any of these can change substantially the estimates for yearly expenses.

I would support @MikeOH's assessment from above. You are probably best off either renting a basic trainer or becoming a member in a club with some basic trainers available. Get to the point where you fly the C172 with no surprises. Then move up to a complex aircraft. Otherwise you'll certainly pay a boatload in insurance, possibly gear it up (main reason insurance will be expensive) and/or do many beginner's mistakes in managing the plane, both from a flying and a maintenance perspective.

I have a friend who is in a club in the Bay Area, do you want me to ask for details for you? If you fly a lot, membership in a club is the cheapest way to fly without owning. 

[201Mooniac]

One point to check is that many/most Mooneys do not have brakes on the right side and many instructors especially for primary training, won't instruct without brakes on their side.

[Jeff Uphoff]

1 hour ago, 201Mooniac said:

One point to check is that many/most Mooneys do not have brakes on the right side and many instructors especially for primary training, won't instruct without brakes on their side.

Les took a leap of faith checking me out when I transitioned to my C.

--Up.

[47U]

9 hours ago, Fernie said:

It looks well cared for and is priced at $115K

Turbo or not, a ‘64C priced at $115K better be the best, most pristine, vintage C on (perhaps) the entire planet.

The turbo system certainly would warrant extra scrutiny during inspection.  I don’t have any idea about parts support for that system, but if I were buying, I’d find out and be ready to factor that knowledge into the purchase price.

What were you training in?  The transition to a Mooney from a PA-28 is going to easier than from a C-152 or C-172.  In my opinion.

It’d be a nice airplane for commuting between NORCAL and SOCAL…. really nice.

Good luck.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, MikeOH said:

IMHO, your premise that you will come out ahead of renting is likely false.  If you can afford to own, it beats the hell out of renting but I don't think you are going to save money.

I tend to agree on the financial point, but there can be other benefits. I’ve had two friends who bought their own airplane when student pilots.  

In the first, the impetus was maintenance and scheduling issues with the large, busy flight schools at the airport. So he bought what he wanted to fly (in that case a 182). What he also got was more in-depth systems knowledge and more freedom for solo flights. 

The second wanted to start with glass but also recognized the scheduling issues (and didn’t like the available school choices). But he also understood the freedom my first friend found. So he bought a modern LSA. 

[Fernie]

21 hours ago, AndreiC said:

You never mentioned the three most important numbers for the plane you are looking at: SMOH, TTAF, and how many hours it was flown per year in the last 4-5 years. Any of these can change substantially the estimates for yearly expenses.

I would support @MikeOH's assessment from above. You are probably best off either renting a basic trainer or becoming a member in a club with some basic trainers available. Get to the point where you fly the C172 with no surprises. Then move up to a complex aircraft. Otherwise you'll certainly pay a boatload in insurance, possibly gear it up (main reason insurance will be expensive) and/or do many beginner's mistakes in managing the plane, both from a flying and a maintenance perspective.

I have a friend who is in a club in the Bay Area, do you want me to ask for details for you? If you fly a lot, membership in a club is the cheapest way to fly without owning. 

TTAF: 4,039 

SMOH: 1,254.7

New hatsel prop

I also have no idea how much it has been flown in the past 5 years. 

Yes, if I can get some details, that would be great. Thank you! 

[201Mooniac]

17 hours ago, Jeff Uphoff said:

Les took a leap of faith checking me out when I transitioned to my C.

--Up.

I've come across many who will do a transition, not many who will do primary.  Les did my transition tot he M20K (his).

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Fernie said:

 

I also have no idea how much it has been flown in the past 5 years. 

Look at the logs; the seller should be able to send pdfs to you.

JMO, but recent and continuous usage was just about the most important factor when I was shopping. It showed that the owner not only used and maintained the aircraft but that it was reliable and TRUSTWORTHY.  Meeting and sizing up the seller was equally, if not more important.

[kortopates]

As a Mooney specific instructor not that many DPE’s will do a checkride without right hand brakes or the Piper parking hand brake; especially for a Private. My favorite DPE, that owned a Mooney, won’t even fly without the brakes for a CPL ride! Some will though.

Regardless it’s usually faster to get your private in a fixed gear trainer and then Transition to Mooney after; especially if you’re not real young. Age really matters here. Sorry but middle aged pilots are not nearly as fast learners as they were 20 years younger and personally this would be a big mistake for most anyone in their 60’s and later.
Don’t even start the training till you can fly at least twice a week to get this done.
Recommend completing your written before starting training to save time and $.

Just my opinions as an experienced Mooney trainer.


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[AndreiC]

My friend in the Bay Area recommends this club:

http://wvfc.org

They allow people with no PPL yet, but with an instructor. 

[jeremyc209]

You won't get insurance in California as a student pilot in a Mooney, @Parker_Woodruff tried to get it done for me last year.

I'm glad though, I ended up doing most of my training in a 150 and passed my checkride in it, then bought my Mooney at around 100TT. There's a lot more going on in the Mooney, in the 150 I could concentrate on stick n rudder skills and it's harder to get behind flying a 150. 

Also, since I was in a club, the 150 had 100hour inspections and I never had to worry about maintenance etc other than a couple scheduling issues. Just another distraction avoided so I could focus on my training.

[Aaviationist]

115k for a C?

that should be your first red flag. There are only a few Cs I have seen that would bring that kind of price, and that doesn’t sound like one of them. 
 

The biggest hurdle will be insurance, which again will probably not give you that value. Avemco will probably insure you for up to 80k, but will be expensive. 
 

the rest is really based on you.