Follow-up to the ceramic coating saga

[AndreiC]

Some of you may recall that a couple of months ago I asked some questions about doing a paint correction (i.e., buffing) and ceramic coating my plane. 

Here is the bind I am in. After a lot of comparisons I found a shop nearby that was willing to do the job for 2/3 of the original quote I had gotten ($3500 versus $5000). However, maybe they did tell me and I did not register, or maybe they did not tell me and I found out only afterwards, but the product they applied is PermaGard, which from what I can tell is a polymer based coating, not a ceramic coat. The plane looks very nice now, but I wonder how durable this product is, and how I can proceed going forward.

From reading on the internet, this product needs to be applied every year, or else it becomes useless after a year or two. (This seems to be in contrast to what ceramic shops told me, which was that their product was expected to last 3-5 years, and on the longer side if the plane was hangared.) 

Two questions:

a) Is there a way I can maintain this polymer coating with products available to the general public, so that it lasts me a long time (without needing to pay $2000-3000 every year to get it commercially reapplied)? I know that a ceramic coating cannot be put on top of this without a new polishing and chemical stripping of the Permagard product.

b) What products would people recommend using on top of the Permagard? Wax (like WashWax All), or some of the other coatings like Triphene or pther graphene based protectants from Amazon?

I am pretty discouraged that I did not do a bit more research beforehand to understand the difference between the polymer and ceramic coatings...

Thanks, Andrei.

[IvanP]

You may also consider checking what UL fuels will do to this coating. There are few posts about the possibly detrimental effects of unladed fuels on aircraft paint.

[A64Pilot]

Personally I’m a skeptic of how long do ceramic coatings last, I don’t believe they will last 3 to 5 years, but I guess that depends on the definition of last.

“Ceramic” coating is apparently a polymer.

https://cardetailingplanet.com/is-a-ceramic-coating-worth-your-money-should-you-get-it/

This is ceramic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic

I don’t know how the paint coating is a ceramic, perhaps a marketing thing maybe or ?

Edited January 24 by A64Pilot

[Marc_B]

I think the biggest benefit from ceramic coating is that they are much easier to clean which translates to less work, less pressure, and less scratches from scraping the surface.  The "better" the coating, the longer the protection lasts.  The "professional" grade products last longer but part of that is that the surface is properly prepared so that the product adheres better, and the other part is the quality of product.  Base preparation and paint correction is time intensive and requires some degree of technique/equipment.

Most professionals would probably recommend a touch up or refresher every few years...a good rule of thumb is when you notice a different in water beading, slickness or gloss.

Most paint shops I've spoken with recommend ceramic coating.  Of course the "value" of this, like most things in aviation, is dependent on the eye of the beholder.

@AndreiC it's interesting that Permagard advertises as not needing paint correction and so seems like it should have been way cheaper than ceramic with paint correction.

[AndreiC]

Well, I talked to PermaGard and got some slightly better news. They said that their product is relatively easy to apply after the initial preparation and application (so just to maintain it), and for a small plane like mine/ours they would be able to sell it to me directly. They said that just watching a 1-2 hour video that is available on YouTube would be enough to understand how to apply their product, and that one could get a Mooney-like plane in a day of work, taking it relatively easily. So I can, with relatively minimal cost, do the yearly maintenance of the coating, and with that things should last a while.

My concern was that I did not want to be stuck with having to pay a specialized contractor to do it every year for a large (~2 AMU) expense.

@Marc_B: my plane needed paint correction anyway, the paint was old, badly oxidized and just plain dirty (with dirt embedded in the paint). So that is how I explain the high cost of what I got -- they needed to go over the paint at least twice with their buffing/polishing before applying the PermaGard product.

Apparently GulfStream uses the PermaGard product for their planes. Maybe it's not so bad... 

[Rotorhead]

@AndreiC most of the money you spent towards the labor of the actual paint correction. The coating most likely took about a 1/5th of the time and the cost of the coating itself couldn't of been any greater than $200. 

You're still in a good spot really. Since the paint correction has been completed, and you have protection applied, your paint will continue to look good. You could apply another ceramic coating on top of the poly earlier than a year to ensure continued protection without having to get a full paint correction as well. 

Coming from a guy who has done a paint correction or two ...

[Pinecone]

I think a good quality coating on a hangared aircraft should last at least 5 years.

I did my M3 with Zaino about a year after I got it in 2002.  It is garaged.  It still looks good and water beads on it.

[Flyler]

If you just had the paint correction done, with zero coating/wax on top, the plane still would've looked amazing.  The coatings, whatever type they are, will add some depth to the shine but also protect the paint so it looks amazing longer.  They certainly make the surface more slippery so dirt and water don't stick.  More importantly, Mooneys are supposed to be slippery.  I think if you keep up with the re-application as per PermaGard's recommendation, your plane is going to look way better than most others on the lot, for a long time coming 

[Aaviationist]

On 1/23/2025 at 2:40 PM, IvanP said:

You may also consider checking what UL fuels will do to this coating. There are few posts about the possibly detrimental effects of unladed fuels on aircraft paint.

Your agenda isn’t everyone else’s agenda. 
 

don’t do that. 

[Schllc]

On 1/23/2025 at 7:10 PM, A64Pilot said:

Personally I’m a skeptic of how long do ceramic coatings last, I don’t believe they will last 3 to 5 years, but I guess that depends on the definition of last.

“Ceramic” coating is apparently a polymer.

https://cardetailingplanet.com/is-a-ceramic-coating-worth-your-money-should-you-get-it/

This is ceramic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic

I don’t know how the paint coating is a ceramic, perhaps a marketing thing maybe or ?

im skeptical of all of these types of products, but i don't see why it would be unreasonable, for whatever protection it affords, to last 3-5 years for a plane that is hangared.    I fly about 200 hours a year and my plane spends less than 10 days outside of a hangar.

If you are on a ramp, i don't believe it would last one year.  UV and heat are inexorable.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

im skeptical of all of these types of products, but i don't see why it would be unreasonable, for whatever protection it affords, to last 3-5 years for a plane that is hangared.    I fly about 200 hours a year and my plane spends less than 10 days outside of a hangar.

If you are on a ramp, i don't believe it would last one year.  UV and heat are inexorable.

Location too of course

Using your example I believe Rejex will last at least a year and WAY less expensive and very easy to apply. It’s lasting 6 months on our cars in Fl and they are taken through the car wash several times a month.

I believe the overwhelming majority of the benefits of professionally applied Ceramic coating is the paint “correction” I believe in my day it was called cut n buff or similar.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Schllc said:

im skeptical of all of these types of products, but i don't see why it would be unreasonable, for whatever protection it affords, to last 3-5 years for a plane that is hangared.    I fly about 200 hours a year and my plane spends less than 10 days outside of a hangar.

My airplane is hangared and I've coated it twice in eight years, so that's about right.    On my vehicles it seems to last 3-4 years.   They're usually garaged but spend more time outside than the airplane does.

[DCarlton]

I paid $785 this July for a thorough wet wash, fuel gunk removal, paint polishing, oxidation removal, paint sealant application, and spinner polishing from a professional aircraft detailer.  Same process as waxing but the "sealant" used is also a polymer.  Very satisfied with the results.  After considering the cost of "ceramic" coatings, I decided to just do this after each annual.  I also didn't want to do anything to interfere with future planned paint touch up work.  

[PT20J]

28 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Location too of course

Using your example I believe Rejex will last at least a year and WAY less expensive and very easy to apply. It’s lasting 6 months on our cars in Fl and they are taken through the car wash several times a month.

I believe the overwhelming majority of the benefits of professionally applied Ceramic coating is the paint “correction” I believe in my day it was called cut n buff or similar.

Rejex is what my painter recommends. Easy to apply, once a year.

 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

I paid $785 this July for a thorough wet wash, fuel gunk removal, paint polishing, oxidation removal, paint sealant application, and spinner polishing from a professional aircraft detailer.  Same process as waxing but the "sealant" used is also a polymer.  Very satisfied with the results.  After considering the cost of "ceramic" coatings, I decided to just do this after each annual.  I also didn't want to do anything to interfere with future planned paint touch up work.  

How about a picture?

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

On 1/23/2025 at 6:10 PM, A64Pilot said:

Personally I’m a skeptic of how long do ceramic coatings last, I don’t believe they will last 3 to 5 years, but I guess that depends on the definition of last.

“Ceramic” coating is apparently a polymer.

https://cardetailingplanet.com/is-a-ceramic-coating-worth-your-money-should-you-get-it/

This is ceramic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic

I don’t know how the paint coating is a ceramic, perhaps a marketing thing maybe or ?

Well, if the definition of ceramic is, as listed in your link, "an inorganic, non-metallic", that excludes lots of polymers, since they are organic.  Seems more like marketing buzzword hype.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I paid $785 this July for a thorough wet wash, fuel gunk removal, paint polishing, oxidation removal, paint sealant application, and spinner polishing from a professional aircraft detailer.  Same process as waxing but the "sealant" used is also a polymer.  Very satisfied with the results.  After considering the cost of "ceramic" coatings, I decided to just do this after each annual.  I also didn't want to do anything to interfere with future planned paint touch up work.  

Did this to mine last year. He also shampooed the interior. Looks great!

25 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

How about a picture?

[DCarlton]

23 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

How about a picture?