Replaced Starter - Invoice was WAY more than expected

[gwav8or]

1967 M20F.  Had my starter go bad.  Bought a skytec 149-NL and delivered it to the mechanic.  I just got the invoice.  12 hours!!!  Does that sound right????  Seems excessively excessive to me.

[EricJ]

Seems high to me.   I changed mine out and it didn't take me that long, and I'm slow!   You can ask him why it took so long.   It's possible that they may have fabricated some new pieces in the cowl baffling or something, or replaced some aging wiring.   

[Hank]

I could do it quicker than that, and I've never done it before!

You should ask for details on why it took so long, even allowing time to make the logbook entry. It's not like he spent time sourcing and ordering the starter. 

[gwav8or]

He told me the following via txt:

"It just took awhile to do. Like all of the cowling plus front baffling had to come off.  It was an ordeal for sure."

[gwav8or]

He also just told me that he has 12 hours in the work.  Said they spent the morning putting the cowling back on.  Holy cow, how difficult is it to r/r the cowling?

[1967 427]

If R&R, the cowling was his first and only response, he obviously didn’t have to manufacture any shielding or other components.  I would definitely call him to the carpet on this one.

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

He also just told me that he has 12 hours in the work.  Said they spent the morning putting the cowling back on.  Holy cow, how difficult is it to r/r the cowling?

Cheeks and top, less than five minutes; bottom a little more--whole thing 15-20 minutes to remove, call it twice that long to put back on. I've only removed my lower cowling once, many years ago, and with my 3-blade prop it was a pain. I could do it in the morning, alone, with multiple breaks for coffee and donuts and phone calls . . .

[gwav8or]

I asked him if his invoice had a typo.  He revised the invoice down to 8 hours.  Still  sounds like a lot but I'll take what I can get.

Does anybody have instructions or a video on how to remove the cowling on a '67 F?  Mine is bone stock, no modifications other than a panel upgrade and avionics last year.

I'm tempted to start doing the r/r of the cowling myself if I can do it in an hour.

[EricJ]

46 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

I asked him if his invoice had a typo.  He revised the invoice down to 8 hours.  Still  sounds like a lot but I'll take what I can get.

That's not a bad outcome, I think.   FWIW, my airplane is a J model, so it's only a couple of minutes to decowl it completely, and the baffling is different than yours.    So my experience may not be relevant.

46 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

Does anybody have instructions or a video on how to remove the cowling on a '67 F?  Mine is bone stock, no modifications other than a panel upgrade and avionics last year.

I'm tempted to start doing the r/r of the cowling myself if I can do it in an hour.

That's a good idea, so you have a future reference.    I've never done it on one of the earlier, metal-cowled airplanes, but I've always heard it's a bit of a pain.

 

[Igor_U]

I admit that 12 hours seems on the high side, however....

Years ago I admitted to my A&P that I should never complain on some of his "high" quotes. Why? Because I started doing most of  the work myself and it took longer. Even after number of years working on my plane.

And while lower cowl removal takes time, installation is really PITA. It's the best to have a helper (more billable hours) and attaching RAM air cable is very difficult due to 2nd landing light my plane has it there. You might have an oil cooler on that location which might be worse, IDK. Then, there's that infamous $700 Intake duct attached by 6 bolts to the cowl that are difficult to reach. I can easily spend up to an hour to disconnect or put it back on. Years ago I made a deal with my IA not to remove the lower cowl at the annuals to reduce the pain. But still, I have to do it every now and then and it's NOT fast. Not on my F.

I recently installed the new Skytec starter after the old one failed. It was 149-12LS, same as the old one and I needed to (partially) remove the baffles, which means removal of the tension rods, drilling old rivets and number of fasteners. I didn't have to modify the baffles, though. Access to couple of bolts was very difficult, other two were not that bad but it took time. I've done it in couple of days (week apart while wafting for starter) and I'd like to think it was less then 4 hours for removal. Installation? Did I say it's PITA? I took me almost full day on the weekend due to access and trying to fit it without removing front baffles. My mechanic had it inspected and did the paperwork.

My advice? See if you can help and do owner assist annuals on your plane. Over years your IA should let you do more work, you can learn more and save some money. But mostly, appreciate the time and pain needed to put some things in order.  You can start by removing lower cowl, if needed for exhaust inspection or such. Luckily, we don't need to take it of for simple oil changes.

Good luck.

 

Edit: Nocking off 4h of your bill seems like a good deal. I would stick to this mechanic/shop. 

Cheers

 

 

 

  

 

 

[gwav8or]

11 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

I admit that 12 hours seems on the high side, however....

Years ago I admitted to my A&P that I should never complain on some of his "high" quotes. Why? Because I started doing most of  the work myself and it took longer. Even after number of years working on my plane.

And while lower cowl removal takes time, installation is really PITA. It's the best to have a helper (more billable hours) and attaching RAM air cable is very difficult due to 2nd landing light my plane has it there. You might have an oil cooler on that location which might be worse, IDK. Then, there's that infamous $700 Intake duct attached by 6 bolts to the cowl that are difficult to reach. I can easily spend up to an hour to disconnect or put it back on. Years ago I made a deal with my IA not to remove the lower cowl at the annuals to reduce the pain. But still, I have to do it every now and then and it's NOT fast. Not on my F.

I recently installed the new Skytec starter after the old one failed. It was 149-12LS, same as the old one and I needed to (partially) remove the baffles, which means removal of the tension rods, drilling old rivets and number of fasteners. I didn't have to modify the baffles, though. Access to couple of bolts was very difficult, other two were not that bad but it took time. I've done it in couple of days (week apart while wafting for starter) and I'd like to think it was less then 4 hours for removal. Installation? Did I say it's PITA? I took me almost full day on the weekend due to access and trying to fit it without removing front baffles. My mechanic had it inspected and did the paperwork.

My advice? See if you can help and do owner assist annuals on your plane. Over years your IA should let you do more work, you can learn more and save some money. But mostly, appreciate the time and pain needed to put some things in order.  You can start by removing lower cowl, if needed for exhaust inspection or such. Luckily, we don't need to take it of for simple oil changes.

Good luck.

 

Edit: Nocking off 4h of your bill seems like a good deal. I would stick to this mechanic/shop. 

Cheers

 

 

 

  

 

 

Thank you for that explanation.  It helps me a lot.  I agree, these can be difficult aircraft to work on.  I'd love to do an owner assist annual but my only time available is weekends and of course the shop is closed on weekends.  I know it would help me out a lot.  Maybe some day.

The description of the intake boot r/r makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, it was very generous of him to knock off 4 hours.  I actually do feel bad.  But the bill for 12 hours labor had me saying some things while sitting at my desk at work that had my coworkers asking if I was OK. lol

This is the second plane I've had this shop take care of for me and they've always been really good to me so I don't foresee taking my plane anywhere else.

[DXB]

8 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

Thank you for that explanation.  It helps me a lot.  I agree, these can be difficult aircraft to work on.  I'd love to do an owner assist annual but my only time available is weekends and of course the shop is closed on weekends.  I know it would help me out a lot.  Maybe some day.

The description of the intake boot r/r makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, it was very generous of him to knock off 4 hours.  I actually do feel bad.  But the bill for 12 hours labor had me saying some things while sitting at my desk at work that had my coworkers asking if I was OK. lol

This is the second plane I've had this shop take care of for me and they've always been really good to me so I don't foresee taking my plane anywhere else.

It's important you brought it up with them and also that you got the expletives out of your system before doing so. It's rather tricky when a mechanic or shop known for reliable work seems to overcharge.  The number of qualified A&Ps available to help with our planes continues to shrink, and I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and prioritize maintaining any working relationship...unless they've done something willfully and egregiously fraudulent. Fortunately that has been confined to a single experience for me - charging >1amu for tightening an alternator belt - It was fortunate in retrospect that no punches were thrown by the shop owner and there is no lien on my plane after I refused to pay that bill.  I definitely can't set foot in that shop again though... 

[N201MKTurbo]

I owned an M20F for 20 years. I could R&R the starter in about 4 hours. But I had the sequence down cold. If I wasn’t very familiar with the E F Mooneys, I can see it taking that long to figure it out, especially if you tried to short cut it.

[carusoam]

Easy job when…

plane is in for annual…

everything is decowled already…

all the bolts are made this century…

 

while you are in there…

bring generator up to modern specs with modern voltage regulator…

make sure the new starter is properly sealed to the lower cowl/dog house…

any oversized holes will interrupt your engine cooling’s pressure/airflow characteristics…

PP thoughts only… (old M20C experience)

 

best regards,,

-a-

[carusoam]

Starter and alternator or generator…

are the only simple automotive style add on things under the hood…

if you have changed out these devices on a car… (60s and 70s auto technology…)

these are quite similar…

if it takes all day to get right… call it good!

 

if you end up bending/cutting sheet metal, riveting in place… replacing felt seal with a silicone seal…

it will definitely take extra time…

 

in the end…

you are going to love the high speed starter, compared to the original…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, gwav8or said:

Thank you for that explanation.  It helps me a lot.  I agree, these can be difficult aircraft to work on.  I'd love to do an owner assist annual but my only time available is weekends and of course the shop is closed on weekends.  I know it would help me out a lot.  Maybe some day.

The description of the intake boot r/r makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, it was very generous of him to knock off 4 hours.  I actually do feel bad.  But the bill for 12 hours labor had me saying some things while sitting at my desk at work that had my coworkers asking if I was OK. lol

This is the second plane I've had this shop take care of for me and they've always been really good to me so I don't foresee taking my plane anywhere else.

The lower cowl on an F is significant. Especially if you want him to be careful with your “unobtanium” rubber intake duct.

[tcal780]

3 hours ago, gwav8or said:

1967 M20F.  Had my starter go bad.  Bought a skytec 149-NL and delivered it to the mechanic.  I just got the invoice.  12 hours!!!  Does that sound right????  Seems excessively excessive to me.

I just replaced mine. It took my son and I 2 hours. Maybe another hour for the cowling, but yeah, 12 hours seems high if it was a direct replacement. I believe we have the same engine. 

[MB65E]

Early E’s & F’s are brutal!! 
8h is a fair outcome.

What starter came off? Baffling changes required if anything other than the NL starter. Mine is sealed tightly, removing the FWD baffeling is really tough. I’d rather pull the prop. The starter lead doesn’t fit the new stud sometimes as well. Even going from an LS starter to the NL starter. 
I have never had my lower cowling on and off in the same day for perspective. 
You should try the R&R for practice.
-Matt

[Hank]

1 hour ago, MB65E said:

I have never had my lower cowling on and off in the same day for perspective. 

Does the lower cowl really need to be removed, with the induction, cowl flaps, etc., disconnected? Or could it be lowered onto a towel? That's all I've ever done with my C's lower cowl, dropped it down but left everything hooked up.

[gwav8or]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

you are going to love the high speed starter, compared to the original…

 

Best regards,

-a-

Yep, the 172 I fly occasionally has the same starter which is the reason I went with the SkyTec.  Looking forward to it.  Wonder if the high speed starter will make any difference in hot/warm starts?

[gwav8or]

12 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

The lower cowl on an F is significant. Especially if you want him to be careful with your “unobtanium” rubber intake duct.

Yeah, I didn't think about the intake duct.  You're right, that would be a bear.

[gwav8or]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Does the lower cowl really need to be removed, with the induction, cowl flaps, etc., disconnected? Or could it be lowered onto a towel? That's all I've ever done with my C's lower cowl, dropped it down but left everything hooked up.

Yeah, I'v wondered the same thing.  The only thing I can think of that would be in the way is the power boost intake boot.  Not sure though.

[N201MKTurbo]

I ended up leaving the duct attached to the cowl and removing the bolts from the servo. They are easier to get to. There are only 4 of them and they are less traumatic on the boot.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I said above that it would take longer if you tried to short cut the jab, that meant not removing the lower cowl. 

[Jsno]

18 hours ago, gwav8or said:

I asked him if his invoice had a typo.  He revised the invoice down to 8 hours.  Still  sounds like a lot but I'll take what I can get.

Does anybody have instructions or a video on how to remove the cowling on a '67 F?  Mine is bone stock, no modifications other than a panel upgrade and avionics last year.

I'm tempted to start doing the r/r of the cowling myself if I can do it in an hour.

Removing the lower cowl does take some time.  You haven’t seen to disconnect the landing light, cowl doors, oil cooler, oil line clamps, oil line heat shield.  Disconnect the inlet boost duct.  Remove bolts at lower firewall.  All of this in a very tight space.  It does take quite a bit of time to do that and reassemble.