Best Airplane For my Mission?

[Danny]

Hello all, I'm based in SW Washington state near PDX. I'll be needing a year round platform that does SoCal with IFR reserves over western state MEAs. (720NM) I'd also be doing the occasional trip to YVR, PSP, GTF, GCN, and the bay area. Just me and the wife.

I've been educating myself about the differences between the newer models and was wondering what the hive wisdom is on the sweet spot between the more efficient but slower K-models and something like a 305-horse Rocket.

I'm guessing TKS is a must for year round flying. Is it known icing or just for inadvertent encounters?

I'm all ears. Thanks!

[Marc_B]

First, for a 2 person IFR traveling single engine piston, a Mooney can’t be beat. For terrain and weather climbing ability a turbo Money is pretty awesome.

For a lot of us, the M20K 252/Encore is the sweet spot in terms of speed and fuel efficiency. A Bravo, Acclaim, or Rocket conversion is faster but not necessarily better useful load especially when you factor in more fuel burn.

A TKS Mooney can also increase your dispatch rate and may get you through a layer but none of the single engine pistons are true ice machines so should be flown in ice with caution regardless if FIKI certified.

From a useful load perspective, the 252 Encore conversion is a sweet spot given 3130 max gross but a little lighter empty weight than the factory Encore that had better insulation, interior and cosmetics overall.

For me, the M20K Encore is my jam. Next step up for me would come with an extra $1M or so buy-in.

[NickG]

That’s a 4-5 hour flight PDX to say, TOA. So you’d need 6 hours or so including IFR reserves to be on the safe side. 

My Ovation 3 does that no problem and I have TKS. However, just to caution, there’s really no such thing as an all-weather bird. I have a son that lives in EUG and there’s been many days over the last couple of months that I’ve wanted to fly up to see him (from HND) but the weather is a NO-GO - Low IFR, icing etc. I’m guessing a K, Ovation, Bravo, Acclaim or a J will get the job done. I know Acclaim, Bravo, Ovation and K you can get wth TKS/FIKI, I’m not sure about the J variants. I’m assuming that you have plenty of flying experience and lots in IMC. If not, I would once again caution you to take it very slowly.

There are two types of TKS system - FIKI which is Flight Into Known Icing and Inadvertent which is, just that - for inadvertent icing encounters. Same basic system except FIKI needs a backup alternator and has a heated stall warning vane. I honestly don’t know anyone with FIKI that deliberately flies into known icing conditions. For me, the system is there so if I find myself in icing condition or feel like it may be on the way, I can turn the system on as I get the hell out of there ASAP.

By the way, I live and fly all over the Southwest and haven’t regretted not having a turbo. My 310HP Ovation performs flawlessly and can do it LOP.

If you want year round reliability of arriving at your destination on time, fly commercial. That said, Mooneys are magnificent aircraft and you will be thrilled no matter what model you end up with.

[Slick Nick]

37 minutes ago, NickG said:

That’s a 4-5 hour flight PDX to say, TOA. So you’d need 6 hours or so including IFR reserves to be on the safe side. 

My Ovation 3 does that no problem and I have TKS. However, just to caution, there’s really no such thing as an all-weather bird. I have a son that lives in EUG and there’s been many days over the last couple of months that I’ve wanted to fly up to see him (from HND) but the weather is a NO-GO - Low IFR, icing etc. I’m guessing a K, Ovation, Bravo, Acclaim or a J will get the job done. I know Acclaim, Bravo, Ovation and K you can get wth TKS/FIKI, I’m not sure about the J variants. I’m assuming that you have plenty of flying experience and lots in IMC. If not, I would once again caution you to take it very slowly.

There are two types of TKS system - FIKI which is Flight Into Known Icing and Inadvertent which is, just that - for inadvertent icing encounters. Same basic system except FIKI needs a backup alternator and has a heated stall warning vane. I honestly don’t know anyone with FIKI that deliberately flies into known icing conditions. For me, the system is there so if I find myself in icing condition or feel like it may be on the way, I can turn the system on as I get the hell out of there ASAP.

By the way, I live and fly all over the Southwest and haven’t regretted not having a turbo. My 310HP Ovation performs flawlessly and can do it LOP.

If you want year round reliability of arriving at your destination on time, fly commercial. That said, Mooneys are magnificent aircraft and you will be thrilled no matter what model you end up with.

Not only that, but the whole “known” icing thing is up for debate. Is that areas where icing has actually been reported? Technically all of the prog charts are “forecast” icing, doesn’t mean it’s actually known. What’s the actual definition of “known” icing? 

I’ve got many hundreds of hours flying in actual icing conditions, and I still do everything I can to avoid it, especially in an aircraft that can’t fly fast enough for a ram rise that burns it off, like a single engine piston. Unfortunately, the Pacific Northwest means icing conditions are present for almost half of the year. 

[M20F]

1 hour ago, NickG said:

I honestly don’t know anyone with FIKI that deliberately flies into known icing conditions.

We each set our own minimums but the whole point of FIKI is to dispatch into ice. 

If it is 1000’ overcast with a 3000’ layer of light/moderate ice to CAVU on top, I am going and that is what FIKI is for.  

 

 

[M20F]

28 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

What’s the actual definition of “known” icing? 

It’s like pornography, you will know it when you see it….. 

[exM20K]

31 minutes ago, M20F said:

It’s like pornography, you will know it when you see it….. 

kinda.  I think this is the last word on “known” icing from the FAA.

if you observe icing on your airframe you best be getting somewhere else if not FIKI.

FIKI or not, that’s a good plan.

-dan

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

We each set our own minimums but the whole point of FIKI is to dispatch into ice. 

Exactly. 

A very conservative person can field a FIKI bird and use it only for inadvertent icing. 

But in many places you *will* find ice. The question is outs (above, below, turn around, elsewhere), severity/inciting conditions, duration, etc. 

I could not fly my commute many times without the ability to confidently penetrate some (reasonably forseeable) amount of ice. 

It removes an immense amount of worry to have a countermeasure. Gives you time and attention to worry about the turbulence, routing, and other hassles.

[dkkim73]

Just now, dkkim73 said:

Exactly. 

A very conservative person can field a FIKI bird and use it only for inadvertent icing. 

But in many places you *will* find ice. The question is outs (above, below, turn around, elsewhere), severity/inciting conditions, duration, etc. 

I could not fly my commute many times without the ability to confidently penetrate some (reasonably forseeable) amount of ice. 

It removes an immense amount of worry to have a countermeasure. Gives you time and attention to worry about the turbulence, routing, and other hassles.

ETA: to be clear it is often light rime or short bursts of moderate... No SLD or hanging out forever without a plan. 

[Danny]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses. 
 

My philosophy is that FIKI on a straight-wing, no bleed air airplane is that it’s a tool to fly on days where the forecast and PIREPS would ground a non-TKS airplane, but the actual conditions would allow safe operations. I spent a year of my life flying 208Bs. It was certified, but inflight icing was best treated as an emergency. Climb, descend or turn around, but never just sit there allowing it to accrete. 
 

My guess is the M20 wing/airframe allows a little more wriggle room than the ‘van. 
 

But it’s something I’d tread into very carefully. 

[exM20K]

47 minutes ago, Danny said:

My guess is the M20 wing/airframe allows a little more wriggle room than the ‘van. 
 

 Maybe.  I don’t have but an hour or 2 in a caravan, and that one was on floats, so kind of different.  
Im generally indicating 150-160 knots, and min icing speed / cruise climb is 120, so you have a little room. I don’t recall ever losing more than 10 KIAS in ice.

Was th caravan booted or TKS? The philosophy of use is different for each.

-dan

[Will.iam]

Caravan is boots. You wait until 10 Kias drop then activate the boots which sheds the ice but you only usually get 5 kias back so a losing battle and only buys you time to get out of it when more than trace. 

[wombat]

Non-FIKI TKS.  In about 2 minutes of a 4 hour leg on a 9.9 hour day.

The ice in my hand was from the fairing between the fuselage and right wing.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1i5kdDrvD4 (Side)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axZ6b8wKa0g (Front)

[MikeOH]

For Mooney TKS systems, does FIKI provide any more actual anti-icing capability than non-FIKI?  Or, is it only system redundancy?

[MarkD34M]

That windshield iced up quickly! And the de-ice bar did it's job well. 

My understanding of FIKI - Non FIKI = heated stall warning, dual pumps for redundancy, dual alternators to run the pumps and some additional TKS coverage areas on the tail (I seem to recall).

[M20F]

On 12/31/2024 at 9:55 PM, Danny said:

Hello all, I'm based in SW Washington state near PDX. I'll be needing a year round platform that does SoCal with IFR reserves over western state MEAs. (720NM) I'd also be doing the occasional trip to YVR, PSP, GTF, GCN, and the bay area. Just me and the wife.

I've been educating myself about the differences between the newer models and was wondering what the hive wisdom is on the sweet spot between the more efficient but slower K-models and something like a 305-horse Rocket.

I'm guessing TKS is a must for year round flying. Is it known icing or just for inadvertent encounters?

I'm all ears. Thanks!

What does your dispatch rate need to be?

[exM20K]

26 minutes ago, M20F said:

What does your dispatch rate need to be?

This. There will be good years and bad years in piston ownership.  The good years are "Fair" with respect to availability,  and the bad years can see a plane unavailable for a quarter, half, or the full year.

Many chose to avoid flying pistons at night / IMC over terrain / LIFR / Icing / Convective WX.  If you adopt these personal limits, your available flying days may be fewer than you expect or need.

Turbines are significantly better in both MX and WX respects.

If you have decent airline connectivity for your 80% trip, then that is a viable work-around.  If not, you and those reliant on your being somewhere at a given time will sour on serious use of these toy airplanes.

-dan

[exM20K]

50 minutes ago, MarkD34M said:

That windshield iced up quickly! And the de-ice bar did it's job well. 

My understanding of FIKI - Non FIKI = heated stall warning, dual pumps for redundancy, dual alternators to run the pumps and some additional TKS coverage areas on the tail (I seem to recall).

Mostly correct, though I believe the panels are the same kit.

Also FIKI requires 28V electrics, and no-hazard may retain the heated prop in lieu of the slinger.

 

-dan

[dkkim73]

15 hours ago, wombat said:

Non-FIKI TKS.  In about 2 minutes of a 4 hour leg on a 9.9 hour day.

The ice in my hand was from the fairing between the fuselage and right wing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1i5kdDrvD4 (Side)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axZ6b8wKa0g (Front)

 

@wombat

What's your protocol on use of the dedicated windshield de-ice pump?

I haven't had much ice there yet, and the use of the defrost and the slow rate from the main system (to the windshield bar) has kept forward visibility pretty clear. It looks like you had a significant rate of accumulation there...

[dkkim73]

25 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Mostly correct, though I believe the panels are the same kit.

Also FIKI requires 28V electrics, and no-hazard may retain the heated prop in lieu of the slinger.

-dan

FWIW if you have (or switch to) a glass panel, the backup alternator with the FIKI setup  is additional peace of mind. Probably even if you don't

[M20F]

18 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

@wombat

What's your protocol on use of the dedicated windshield de-ice pump?

I haven't had much ice there yet, and the use of the defrost and the slow rate from the main system (to the windshield bar) has kept forward visibility pretty clear. It looks like you had a significant rate of accumulation there...

How many hours do you have FL210 or above?

[NickG]

1 hour ago, MarkD34M said:

That windshield iced up quickly! And the de-ice bar did it's job well. 

My understanding of FIKI - Non FIKI = heated stall warning, dual pumps for redundancy, dual alternators to run the pumps and some additional TKS coverage areas on the tail (I seem to recall).

Same ice coverage. FIKI has Heated stall warning and dual alternators.

[dkkim73]

49 minutes ago, M20F said:

How many hours do you have FL210 or above?

In this plane, just over 1 hr (at FL210, in fact). I'm usually in the high teens, 17K is often a sweet spot for my route, sometimes FL190.

Why do you ask? I would think accretion rates would be even lower when it's colder. Most of the icing in my current flight regime is found in layers in the high 1000's or low teens, or in light precip returns.

D

[wombat]

4 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

@wombat

What's your protocol on use of the dedicated windshield de-ice pump?

It goes on the "When I feel like it" schedule.   hahaha

 

If I was generating ice shortly before landing I'd probably do it a bunch more, but in cruise it's just 'for fun' and to see how well it works.   It's not like I really need great visibility in IMC or when I'm going in and out of IMC.

[wombat]

5 hours ago, M20F said:

How many hours do you have FL210 or above?

I don't think this was for me, but I've got < 10 hours at or above FL210 as well.  Probably more than 8, but for sure less than 15. Regardless, it's REALLY few hours up there.  It's really only useful for me when flying East because the altitude benefit is canceled out by the winds aloft when going west.