ATC Phraseology

[M20F-1968]

Thought I wouldn't put this out there for comments.  Last week, I took the airplane out and landed at a towered and actively controlled airport.  I taxied to the hold short line and waited.  After a few minutes, I was given the instruction to "lineup and hold".   I understood that to be essentially the same direction as "lineup and wait" or "position and hold."

I crossed the whole short line and took position at the very end of the runway, stopped and waited for further takeoff clearance.  I subsequently heard the tower controller to ask incoming traffic to go around.  The tower controller then said to me that "lineup and hold" meant to taxi to the whole short line and hold.

I realize that this direction is many times misinterpreted.  I was already holding on the safe side of the whole short line.  I understood, I believe correctly, that his instructions to "lineup and hold" were essentially instructions to line up on the runway end, wait for further in clearance to takeoff, and expect that clearance to be quick as I may be waiting for an aircraft to come off the runway, or there may be someone on approach behind me.  

Other seen this misinterpretation by ATC has something that needs to be watched out for.  Given what occurred, I feel like I need to verify what the tower means when it gives instructions to "lineup and wait" before I do anything, but that is not the intention of the direction as the tower is trying to expedite due to traffic.

What have you all experienced?

John Breda

 

 

 

[PT20J]

First, I would file an ASRS report. 

Second, I’ve never heard “Line up and hold”. I don’t find that instruction in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

[Marc_B]

Have not heard line up and hold. Typically I’ve heard “Hold Short Runway…”

Could see why confusing.  I think it would warrant a call to the tower in question to discuss phraseology with supervisor.

Taxi into position and hold = line up and wait. 

[bcg]

I would have interpreted it exactly as you did, his phraseology was bad.  I've never been told anything other than "Hold Short Runway xx" and it's always required a read back with the runway number and call sign in the same transmission.  I've also only been given a "line up and wait" instruction behind departing traffic, never with someone on approach.  In hindsight, there were clues but, I don't think this is on you, at least not 100%. 

 

I agree that filing an ASRS would be a good idea.  If you do hear anything more about it, I would expect that the controller will get some retraining out of it.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

First, I would file an ASRS report. 

Second, I’ve never heard “Line up and hold”. I don’t find that instruction in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Nor is it in the 7110.65.  If the description of thew event is accurate (any chance this is on LiveATC?), the controller was not using standard terminology and then complained when they were misunderstood . And since "line up" in the 7110 is only associated with "line of and wait" I'll say it's bad nonstandard terminology, especially if the controller means "hold short," standard phrasing they did not use.

I have heard, "Taxi up to the hold line and hold short" for what this controller apparently meant.

[Danb]

I’m at a controlled were given appropriately “line up and wait” meaning taxi on the runway and in a position to take off. I just read the AIM which states the proper phraseology. He I guess messed up line up and wait along with hold short of…At our airport if the approaching traffic is within six miles they painfully make us stay at the hold short area before issuing the line up and wait, which is the proper phraseology. I’d file an ASRS report at least it’s your get out of jail card. The controller needs some training hopefully a supervisor was in the tower. Merry Xmas All…

[dkkim73]

It's weird to have to ask ATC for clarification. This seems like one of those "if it seems wrong" situations... Appreciate your sharing it as it's kind of a warning. IIUC there are a lot of new trainees and some regional variation in skill, too. 

They've (luckily) always been explicit with me to "hold short" unless they've explicitly said "line up and wait" (or "position and hold" back when that was cool, now I think the proper phraseology is "line up and wait", or "plant-based" or something like that). 

D

[201er]

3 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

Thought I wouldn't put this out there for comments.  Last week, I took the airplane out and landed at a towered and actively controlled airport.  I taxied to the hold short line and waited.  After a few minutes, I was given the instruction to "lineup and hold".   I understood that to be essentially the same direction as "lineup and wait" or "position and hold."

I crossed the whole short line and took position at the very end of the runway, stopped and waited for further takeoff clearance.  I subsequently heard the tower controller to ask incoming traffic to go around.  The tower controller then said to me that "lineup and hold" meant to taxi to the whole short line and hold.

I realize that this direction is many times misinterpreted.  I was already holding on the safe side of the whole short line.  I understood, I believe correctly, that his instructions to "lineup and hold" were essentially instructions to line up on the runway end, wait for further in clearance to takeoff, and expect that clearance to be quick as I may be waiting for an aircraft to come off the runway, or there may be someone on approach behind me. 

Were you issued a pilot deviation for runway incursion? I'm not sure how you're supposed to "lineup" on the taixway... just hold

One that I don't like is Patomac approach is obsessed with telling everyone "remain clear of the bravo" which over a scratchy radio with calls blocked or incessant distraction on guard sounds like "cleared into the bravo". I would much rather they don't say anything (then I know I'm not cleared until I request a clearance), clear me in, or at least say "remain outside the bravo" which is distinctly and clearly different.

[midlifeflyer]

19 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

It's weird to have to ask ATC for clarification

I not sure what you mean by that. Asking for clarification is not only good policy that should never feel weird to a pilot, it’s also a rule. 

[EricJ]

My understanding ist that "Taxi into position and hold" was changed specifically to delete the "hold" instruction so that would be reserved for "hold short" or other "hold" instructions meaning "don't move from there".    Like "line up" is supposed to be easily understood and unambiguous about lining up on the runway, rather than the previous "into position", which isn't specific to a position.  I think that was a controller error, for making an ambiguous instruction from one that was intended to be clear about where to go and what to do.   My inclination would have been to do what you did, but I probably would have asked for clarification first, since it was unusual instruction.

[dkkim73]

2 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I not sure what you mean by that. Asking for clarification is not only good policy that should never feel weird to a pilot, it’s also a rule. 

You're entirely correct. That was my point, not very well-made by me. One tends to hesitate, thinking "I should understand that" or fitting what is said into something that seems to make sense (a lot of perception involves a projectional component). 

D

[Hank]

35 minutes ago, 201er said:

One that I don't like is Patomac approach is obsessed with telling everyone "remain clear of the bravo" which over a scratchy radio with calls blocked or incessant distraction on guard sounds like "cleared into the bravo". I would much rather they don't say anything (then I know I'm not cleared until I request a clearance), clear me in, or at least say "remain outside the bravo" which is distinctly and clearly different.

Atlanta Center has been telling me "stay out of the Bravo" for years now. They used to be more polite about guarding the sacred airspace, but there's so many Yankees there now . . . .

[0TreeLemur]

2 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

It's weird to have to ask ATC for clarification.

I agree that it is weird to have to ask ATC for clarification. Standard phrases should be the only thing that comes out of their mouths when giving us direction.   It's their job!   The use of non-standard phrases creates all kinds of uncertainty.  

After a handoff last Saturday from Ft. Worth Center to Memphis Center, a controller said to me  "3514 Greenville Altimeter 3024".   That left me in a lurch, puzzling over what the heck than meant...  I should have spoken up with something- I'm still at a loss.  Maybe "repeat last message"?   A minute later he asked me if I was squawking 3514.   I think he forgot to key the mic at the beginning where he said "Reset transponder..."  

 

[PeteMc]

I missed it if you said, what airport was this?  And I'd call the Tower Supervisor and ask them to review the tapes and get back to you.  

Tell them that you're interested to learn and if they'd get back to you with what they think happened. 

[Immelman]

ASRS this ASAP.

You both screwed up, but the controller led you into it.

[201Steve]

If you didn’t get a brasher warning, they knew what they did. 

[MikeOH]

20 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

If you didn’t get a brasher warning, they knew what they did. 

I'm thinking the same.  If the OP pulled onto an active runway without a clearance and caused a go-around, I cannot fathom NOT getting a Brasher warning.  That controller knew he screwed the pooch.  Nevertheless, I'd be filing that ASRS post haste!  (I'd also bet that 'tape' got 'reused' before his shift was over)

[201er]

34 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

 (I'd also bet that 'tape' got 'reused' before his shift was over)

Doesn’t matter… there’s always vasaviation to keep controller honest 

[M20F-1968]

On 12/25/2024 at 6:55 PM, MikeOH said:

I'm thinking the same.  If the OP pulled onto an active runway without a clearance and caused a go-around, I cannot fathom NOT getting a Brasher warning.  That controller knew he screwed the pooch.  Nevertheless, I'd be filing that ASRS post haste!  (I'd also bet that 'tape' got 'reused' before his shift was over)

ASRS meaning NASA report?

[Marc_B]

12 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

ASRS meaning NASA report?

Yes. NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System

https://akama.arc.nasa.gov/asrs_ers/general.html

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

ASRS meaning NASA report?

I see @Marc_B posted the link to the form.  Here's the link to the general site if you want more info. 

There's a Subscribe To CallBack (their email report) that is sometimes interesting to read. 

https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/