Four (4) Mooney Mishaps In Four (4) Days - Three (3) Gear-ups and One (1) Crash On FAA ASIAS

[Schllc]

Well, I think the accident forum is a good addition.  I would say that if this forum prevented one accident it is worth all the other shenanigans.  

My comment wasn't critical, it was searching for a way to be more effective.  That is the goal of posting these incidents right?  So that people can learn from others mistakes?  This is how I have always viewed, but maybe I am in the minority.

[Fly Boomer]

42 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Only a minority of those posting and responding come to the Safety and Accident Discussion Forum (look at the number of posts and the number of views and responses as compared to General, Modern or Vintage Forums. - easily an order of magnitude less.  And it is like frozen in time with the first four (4) topics posted in 2019 -2021 and no responses since then.)

I'm only vaguely aware of the distinctions you are making -- I read every post in every topic.  I don't care what "forum".

[Sue Bon]

56 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Of those few MS members that respond on Safety and Accident Discussion, some only do it to complain either they are offended, that it just points out misfortune, that it is really just a way to complain about insurance, that is not constructive or useful and one even said it was voyeuristic.

I, for one, really do like to know what's going on with the global (or mainly US) Mooney fleet and what is happening with other pilots and owners. I very much appreciate all the effort @1980Mooney puts into laying out the information available and sharing with us what happened.

Even if the discussion doesn't go further than some observations from MS members that have visited the field or know the pilot/owner, it's really helpful for me to be reminded that these things happen pretty regularly and to not get complacent in my own flying.

[Fly Boomer]

5 minutes ago, Sue Bon said:

I, for one, really do like to know what's going on with the global (or mainly US) Mooney fleet and what is happening with other pilots and owners. I very much appreciate all the effort @1980Mooney puts into laying out the information available and sharing with us what happened.

Even if the discussion doesn't go further than some observations from MS members that have visited the field or know the pilot/owner, it's really helpful for me to be reminded that these things happen pretty regularly and to not get complacent in my own flying.

I agree.  Without the efforts of @1980Mooney I would have no idea that any Mooney accidents have happened.  I have never seen nor even heard of one from another pilot outside this forum.  There is the occasional crash that hits the news, but I think it is often local news, which I don't really follow.

EDIT: After thinking about this a little longer, I can now remember one accident at an airport not too distant.  Anyway, point is still the same.

[wombat]

I find some of them useful, some of them not. 

 

When there is no information about a well understood accident (such as an inadvertent gear-up) other than a bunch of personal information about the pilot and cries of "These A-holes are making my insurance rates go up!" I find those posts distasteful.   If we just want statistics, we should publish statistics.   There is no real value to be gained by posting the personal details of the accident pilot unless there is something new or exceptional or something that is useful in terms of changing behaviors in a way that will increase safety.

If there is something we can actually gain from an accident, let's discuss it.  But the pilot's name is hardly ever something we can gain from.

[Echo]

6 hours ago, natdm said:

Mine was posted on here and had a super meaningful discussion but for some reason @1980Mooney deleted it, I think. Frustrating since the reason I responded with such detail was so others could learn from the misfortune.

Other members do NOT have the ability to delete posts.  Only moderators or the ORIGINAL poster can delete a post.

[Echo]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Well you are right, logically it doesn't do anything for those that don't visit this site. 

Just an observation but it appears that:

• Only a minority of Mooney owners join MS as members.
• Only a minority of MS members are frequent visitors to MS.
• Only a minority of MS frequent visitors post or respond to anything.
• Only a minority of those posting and responding come to the Safety and Accident Discussion Forum (look at the number of posts and the number of views and responses as compared to General, Modern or Vintage Forums. - easily an order of magnitude less.  And it is like frozen in time with the first four (4) topics posted in 2019 -2021 and no responses since then.)
• Of those few MS members that respond on Safety and Accident Discussion, some only do it to complain either they are offended, that it just points out misfortune, that it is really just a way to complain about insurance, that is not constructive or useful and one even said it was voyeuristic.
• And some of those are vocal that we, like good children, should just keep our mouths shut, sit on our hands and wait for the NTSB Final to come out in a couple years (which rarely has any bearing on the epidemic of Mooney landing incidents).  Of course when the Final does come out most have forgotten, moved on and have little to no interest at that point.

So you are right.  Few are interested and it doesn't do much if anything.  It is not really worth the effort.  Might as well just delete the entire Forum. 

Please don't.  

[Schllc]

6 minutes ago, Echo said:

Please don't.  

I “echo” that as well. 
Many of the forums or posts wander off topic, they also devolve into petty arguments or attacks at times.  
However, with very few exceptions, there is almost always more value than vitriol. 
I think you have to take the good with the bad. 
I’ve been on a few other forums from time to time and have found them to either be a great lack of interaction, or much much worse than anything I see here. 
The Aerostar forums are really dead comparatively, likely just a function of the number of planes flying, but it’s all business with those guys, no chit chat at all. 
I enjoy almost all of the personalities here, even a few I’ve tangled with. 
I try not to harbor grudges at all in life,  and I definitely hold zero on an Internet forum. It’s way too easy for all parties(myself included) to read into comments and take things from them, that were never meant.  
I may get agitated in the moment but 10min later I’m over it. 
I’ve loved all my mooney’s and can’t wait until I get the next one, and everyone here, regardless of their posts love them as well, and I’ll take that camaraderie any day.  

[natdm]

16 hours ago, Echo said:

Other members do NOT have the ability to delete posts.  Only moderators or the ORIGINAL poster can delete a post.

Correct. He was the OP. I know how forums work. 

[Shadrach]

22 hours ago, Echo said:

Other members do NOT have the ability to delete posts.  Only moderators or the ORIGINAL poster can delete a post.

@1980Mooney was the original poster of the thread showcasing @natdm's prop strike incident.  Nate responded to the thread with a detailed account of what happened. The whole thread was then deleted and his account of the situation was lost.  Seemed kind of senseless.

[natdm]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

@1980Mooney was the original poster of the thread showcasing @natdm's gear up incident.  Nate responded to the thread with a detailed account of what happened. The whole thread was then deleted and his account of the situation was lost.  Seemed kind of senseless.

Minor correction - prop strike on aborted takeoff. Not near as bad as gear up.

[Echo]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

@1980Mooney was the original poster of the thread showcasing @natdm's gear up incident.  Nate responded to the thread with a detailed account of what happened. The whole thread was then deleted and his account of the situation was lost.  Seemed kind of senseless.

I misunderstood.  I thought he meant JUST his post vs. whole thread.

[Echo]

3 hours ago, natdm said:

Correct. He was the OP. I know how forums work. 

O.K. Nate, sorry.  I didn'tunderstand you were saying whole thread was deleted that included your detailed post.  Scott

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, natdm said:

Minor correction - prop strike on aborted takeoff. Not near as bad as gear up.

Edited!

[Will.iam]

So as a public service announcement for gear up landings I highly recommend the landing hight system by micro kit. The problem with having a tower controller say check wheels down or gps alert is that it’s repetitive and says it even when you put the gear down and the mind quickly adapts to repetition to the point of ignoring it or paying no attention to the alert even when you didn’t put the gear down. What is different with the Landing hight system is that you DO NOT HEAR check gear ever if you are doing your job and lowering your gear before the airplane has descended below 200ft agl. I have had the system in my airplane for 9 months now and have never heard the warning except when i first had it installed i did a low flyby test with the gear up to verify that it would say check gear. The fact that i never hear the words check gear means that when i do hear those words i will definitely respond to that alert with either putting the gear down if in vfr conditions and in a position to land safely or if in IMC executing an immediate go-around so that i can pull my head out of my ass and figure out where i am as i certainly have not been in this plane. Am i on the right approach? Am i at the right airport? Figure out what has my attention so much as to forget to lower my gear, what else on my landing checklist did i forget?  I hope i never hear that check gear alert but if do that’s the airplanes last chance to say wake up idiot you are about to take on damage!

[natdm]

2 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

I highly recommend the landing hight system by micro kit. 

I've got the audible alarm if gear is up and power is below 18", but this is pretty neat too...

Unfortunately, I've ran out of circuit breakers. lol.

[wombat]

2 hours ago, natdm said:

Unfortunately, I've ran out of circuit breakers. lol.

You can probably find at least one device where the maximum draw of the device is lower than the circuit breaker value by the amount of the landing height system and put them both on the same breaker.   Need to check the manuals for both to make sure it doesn't require a separate dedicated breaker.    You might also be able to use an inline fuse instead of a panel mounted breaker.

[201Steve]

On 9/10/2024 at 11:16 AM, Paul Thomas said:

The prop on my 84 stops at 10 and 4 o'clock. I wonder if the early J were different or if it is indicative of something else.

The earliest J came with an A1B6D engine. It changed somewhere around 1978 to an A3B6D. 
 

They are clocked differently. 

[T. Peterson]

On 9/12/2024 at 2:02 PM, 1980Mooney said:

Well you are right, logically it doesn't do anything for those that don't visit this site. 

Just an observation but it appears that:

• Only a minority of Mooney owners join MS as members.
• Only a minority of MS members are frequent visitors to MS.
• Only a minority of MS frequent visitors post or respond to anything.
• Only a minority of those posting and responding come to the Safety and Accident Discussion Forum (look at the number of posts and the number of views and responses as compared to General, Modern or Vintage Forums. - easily an order of magnitude less.  And it is like frozen in time with the first four (4) topics posted in 2019 -2021 and no responses since then.)
• Of those few MS members that respond on Safety and Accident Discussion, some only do it to complain either they are offended, that it just points out misfortune, that it is really just a way to complain about insurance, that is not constructive or useful and one even said it was voyeuristic.
• And some of those are vocal that we, like good children, should just keep our mouths shut, sit on our hands and wait for the NTSB Final to come out in a couple years (which rarely has any bearing on the epidemic of Mooney landing incidents).  Of course when the Final does come out most have forgotten, moved on and have little to no interest at that point.

So you are right.  Few are interested and it doesn't do much if anything.  It is not really worth the effort.  Might as well just delete the entire Forum. 

I certainly wouldn’t delete the forum. I don’t comment much because so many of you fellas are more learned and astute on the various subjects than am I, but I learn and am often refreshed on things I know but have not thought about in a while.

Even the whiners provide a bit of entertainment until they don’t. Then I just stop reading their posts. Most of you that contribute provide some good food for thought and I am grateful for your insights. I don’t think we want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

[hammdo]

On 9/12/2024 at 2:02 PM, 1980Mooney said:

Well you are right, logically it doesn't do anything for those that don't visit this site. 

Just an observation but it appears that:

• Only a minority of Mooney owners join MS as members.
• Only a minority of MS members are frequent visitors to MS.
• Only a minority of MS frequent visitors post or respond to anything.
• Only a minority of those posting and responding come to the Safety and Accident Discussion Forum (look at the number of posts and the number of views and responses as compared to General, Modern or Vintage Forums. - easily an order of magnitude less.  And it is like frozen in time with the first four (4) topics posted in 2019 -2021 and no responses since then.)
• Of those few MS members that respond on Safety and Accident Discussion, some only do it to complain either they are offended, that it just points out misfortune, that it is really just a way to complain about insurance, that is not constructive or useful and one even said it was voyeuristic.
• And some of those are vocal that we, like good children, should just keep our mouths shut, sit on our hands and wait for the NTSB Final to come out in a couple years (which rarely has any bearing on the epidemic of Mooney landing incidents).  Of course when the Final does come out most have forgotten, moved on and have little to no interest at that point.

So you are right.  Few are interested and it doesn't do much if anything.  It is not really worth the effort.  Might as well just delete the entire Forum. 

I don’t think deleting is a good idea - if just 1 pilot learns from those reports, it’s worth it. I read them to learn. I ignore those posts that may go off the rails but it is an open forum and comments - good/bad/off topic - are expected by me…

-Don

[Pinecone]

On 9/12/2024 at 1:23 PM, Ragsf15e said:

They definitely do help in the military.  Someone looks at each aircraft on final with binoculars.  It’s easier there though because the landing light is on the nose so even if you can’t see it perfectly, No light means no gear.  
I do agree it’s nice when they look at you, but I suspect there’s one person in a civilian tower where there’s three in the military tower doing the same job.

IN USAF training, there is a student pilot in the runway supervisory unit that controls the runway that has the job of checking for gear and flaps for every landing.

In Tactical Air Command, we had a pilot at the end of the runway doing the same for every landing.

[Pinecone]

On 9/12/2024 at 2:32 PM, Paul Thomas said:

When I fly into military fields, they ask if the gear is down. Even with a fix gear, I don't give them grief about it because it's part of their procedure. I think it's a good safety measure.

I put a warning into foreflight at 500 AGL to remind me to check the gear but I must not have set that up correctly. I need to do some testing with it. There are things we can do to help prevent gear up landings.

They ask because you didn't say.  At least in the USAF, there is a call turning base or at the FAF that included "Gear Down."

Better is the Landing Height System.  Gives you altitude call outs (makes night landings a breeze) and at 200 feet AGL says Check Gear if it does not sense the gear handle in the Down position.

[Pinecone]

18 hours ago, natdm said:

I've got the audible alarm if gear is up and power is below 18", but this is pretty neat too...

Unfortunately, I've ran out of circuit breakers. lol.

In line fuse holder.

[A64Pilot]

On 9/13/2024 at 7:12 PM, wombat said:

You can probably find at least one device where the maximum draw of the device is lower than the circuit breaker value by the amount of the landing height system and put them both on the same breaker.   Need to check the manuals for both to make sure it doesn't require a separate dedicated breaker.    You might also be able to use an inline fuse instead of a panel mounted breaker.

That’s known as a “sneak” circuit, as a mechanic I hate sneak circuits and of course if X CB pops who knows what else you lost with a sneak? You may know if you remember but the next guy won’t.

I hate in-line fuses too, because they can be hard to find, if yiu go that way, please label the thing for the mechanic 

Edited September 18 by A64Pilot

[wombat]

34 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

That’s known as a “sneak” circuit, as a mechanic I hate sneak circuits and of course if X CB pops who knows what else you lost with a sneak? You may know if you remember but the next guy won’t.

I hate in-line fuses too, because they can be hard to find, if yiu go that way, please label the thing for the mechanic 

Of course you have to label everything.    I don't know why you would even consider not labeling it correctly.