Top of the Market Pre-J

[bigmo]

Doing some pretty serious looking now as I have several folks looking at my own plane. Won't get REALLY serious until I have a deal done. So, this is a good time that I start building pricing bookends.

Found a fabulous F that's turn key. Great paint & interior, fabulous no-compromises panel (all Garmin, Garmin autopilot, twin G5, ADB in/out & nice engine monitor). Almost new motor & prop. Great history. That turn-key comes in at $150K. Realistically, it's the most expensive pre-J on the market. Crazy?

Logic has it for similar money in a J, one gives up a lot. A $150K J is missing a lot. To get all of that in a J, it's $200-220K.

I'll be in this plane for years...maybe forever...so not worried about trying to turn it around in 2-3 years. But, I also don't want to be the owner of the most expensive pre-J in the USA either.

Thoughts?

Outstanding looking a/c:

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/236140843/1967-mooney-m20f-piston-single-aircraft

 

 

[KSMooniac]

It might be a bit strong on price in this softening market, but I'm sure there is a lot more money in it to get it to that condition. If it meets your needs and you like the layout and paint, I'd say go for it. Maybe you find a cheaper one to build on, but it will cost more in the end. Too bad it doesn't have the J windscreen and cowl, but otherwise it looks like a well-loved Mooney.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk

[Niko182]

The market is softening. I think its not necessarily overpriced, but the market softening would be something id keep in mind.

[M20F-1968]

$50,000 - $70,000 differential is not much if the J has more of what you want.  The biggest drawback is that you still have the F model cowling and windshield.  This will make this plane a 150 kt airplane, instead of the 160 kt J.  The manual J-bar is a plus.

I have a 1968 F, which is highly modified and is in fact a J, but with J-bar, hydraulic flaps and turbonormalizer.  It is at a minimum a 160 kt airplane, and depending upon altitude up to a 175 kt airplane at 17,000 - 18,000 ft.  

An F can be a very capable airplane, depending upon mods.  The J has the mods, but is not as simple.  I think simple is better which is why I ended up with the plane I have.  But, it was a lot of work, time, and money to make it into what it is.

John Breda

[DXB]

12 hours ago, bigmo said:

Doing some pretty serious looking now as I have several folks looking at my own plane. Won't get REALLY serious until I have a deal done. So, this is a good time that I start building pricing bookends.

Found a fabulous F that's turn key. Great paint & interior, fabulous no-compromises panel (all Garmin, Garmin autopilot, twin G5, ADB in/out & nice engine monitor). Almost new motor & prop. Great history. That turn-key comes in at $150K. Realistically, it's the most expensive pre-J on the market. Crazy?

Logic has it for similar money in a J, one gives up a lot. A $150K J is missing a lot. To get all of that in a J, it's $200-220K.

I'll be in this plane for years...maybe forever...so not worried about trying to turn it around in 2-3 years. But, I also don't want to be the owner of the most expensive pre-J in the USA either.

Thoughts?

Outstanding looking a/c:

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/236140843/1967-mooney-m20f-piston-single-aircraft

 

 

That is one damn nice F that checks all the boxes. Assuming corrosion free and no other gotchas on prebuy, I'd say that price is completely reasonable.  For me the appeal of the J bar and hydraulic flaps  over electric gear/flaps and substantial cost savings over a comparably equipped J would make me leap at this purchase! I'll be a little jealous if you end up with it.  This is pretty much the exact plane I'd try to buy if I could do it over again.

[ttflyer]

That's a very nice looking airplane.  I have a "top of the market" (read over-upgraded) J.  I love it and wouldn't trade but....  I kinda wish it had a J-bar....

[LANCECASPER]

16 hours ago, bigmo said:

Doing some pretty serious looking now as I have several folks looking at my own plane. Won't get REALLY serious until I have a deal done. So, this is a good time that I start building pricing bookends.

Found a fabulous F that's turn key. Great paint & interior, fabulous no-compromises panel (all Garmin, Garmin autopilot, twin G5, ADB in/out & nice engine monitor). Almost new motor & prop. Great history. That turn-key comes in at $150K. Realistically, it's the most expensive pre-J on the market. Crazy?

Logic has it for similar money in a J, one gives up a lot. A $150K J is missing a lot. To get all of that in a J, it's $200-220K.

I'll be in this plane for years...maybe forever...so not worried about trying to turn it around in 2-3 years. But, I also don't want to be the owner of the most expensive pre-J in the USA either.

Thoughts?

Outstanding looking a/c:

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/236140843/1967-mooney-m20f-piston-single-aircraft

 

 

If you found a nice F airframe with a (1) high time engine/prop, (2) needing paint, (3) interior and (4) panel - what would it cost? 75K? Maybe more. 

What would it cost you to do those last three items?

I think around $80k-$85k.

Minimum of $20K for paint, probably a little more.

Interior is basic but it would still be $7000.

I don’t think you could do what they did to the panel for less than $55K (JPI930 alone is min. 10k installed, plus GFC500 with 2 G5s, 2 new coms, new Garmin GPS/transponsder/ audio panel). I don’t like the glare that comes from a shiny painted panel and I would need at least one ground based NAV,  but that’s minor.

Now on top of that, what would it cost you to do the engine and prop? Another $40k-$50k

Now how much down time would you have to do all of those things? A year - maybe less if you staged it right, but that’s hard to do.

As you already know, it’s always less expensive to buy it basically the way you want it - even though you may have done it a little differently. It’s not a J and will never be a J but if the manual gear appeals to you that’s a plus.

If the quality of the work looks good and the logs look good and you are interested, make them a reasonable offer contingent on yours selling and a successful pre-buy on theirs. 

[jetdriven]

Depends on who did the paint and how good that is. The engine is a narrow-deck and depends again, if it it has a reground cam and lifters or new, and new or rebuilt cylinders.  
it only has one nav, and that’s GPS only.  Deficient for a plane in this price range. 
the interior looks good but cheap, like, vinyl and cloth Airtex. Fine for a flight school 172 but this is an expensive plane. 

[201Steve]

Too expensive. It’s not a J period. Mark probably paid 75k for that airplane. 
 

there will be plenty of options for a J nicely equipped for $150k. Just have to look longer than 5 minutes 

[bigmo]

Thanks gents for all the great comments. Like @LANCECASPER stated - they put some money into the plane. Just the engine, prop & panel are north of $100K. VORs are dead, but it'd be nice to have in a real emergency, but I have a portable radio with a surprisingly cable nav.

My mechanic is looking over logs & ADs now so I can have a convo with the broker this week.

For comparison, here's the J at the top of my shopping list:

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/235881353/1985-mooney-m20j-se-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946&settingscrmid=614667

Frankly, I think either of these would fit my mission VERY well.

[201Steve]

Damn I need to increase my insurance value

[tankertoad]

I have flown in Cs, Es, 67 Fs, 75 Fs, Ks, Js and Rs. I don't know all the breakdown of when/which models have the cabin width of 41" vs 43.5", but it is a noticeable difference if you haven't had a chance to sit in both. Also, and this is just my personal observation, the J-style windshield nets a lower cabin noise level than the older style, less sloped windshield. 

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, bigmo said:

Doing some pretty serious looking now as I have several folks looking at my own plane. Won't get REALLY serious until I have a deal done. So, this is a good time that I start building pricing bookends.

Found a fabulous F that's turn key. Great paint & interior, fabulous no-compromises panel (all Garmin, Garmin autopilot, twin G5, ADB in/out & nice engine monitor). Almost new motor & prop. Great history. That turn-key comes in at $150K. Realistically, it's the most expensive pre-J on the market. Crazy?

Logic has it for similar money in a J, one gives up a lot. A $150K J is missing a lot. To get all of that in a J, it's $200-220K.

I'll be in this plane for years...maybe forever...so not worried about trying to turn it around in 2-3 years. But, I also don't want to be the owner of the most expensive pre-J in the USA either.

Thoughts?

Outstanding looking a/c:

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/236140843/1967-mooney-m20f-piston-single-aircraft

 

 

1080lbs useful? It might be the most expensive pre-J model, but it is also likely in the top ten if not top five of all Mooneys for real world load hauling.  Properly planned, that bird will take four 175lb adults and 100lbs of baggage ~600nm and land with VFR reserves.  It is nearly a perfect family plane. 

[M20F]

22 hours ago, bigmo said:

I'll be in this plane for years...maybe forever...so not worried about trying to turn it around in 2-3 years. But, I also don't want to be the owner of the most expensive pre-J in the USA either.

Expand your search beyond Mooney’s.  There are a lot of Cessna’s, Piper’s, etc. that each have +/-‘s.  
 
I went looking for a Bonanza, would have been happy with a Comanche, found the perfect F.   
 
Every year it becomes a diminishing market due to crashes, airplanes rotting, etc.  It isn’t 1980.  If you really want to fly for the next 20-30yrs find the most solid GA plane you can because in 20yrs my F will be 77yrs old…If you find a great Mooney seize it but odds are it isn’t out there. 

[bigmo]

21 hours ago, M20F said:

Expand your search beyond Mooney’s.  There are a lot of Cessna’s, Piper’s, etc. that each have +/-‘s.  
 
I went looking for a Bonanza, would have been happy with a Comanche, found the perfect F.   
 
Every year it becomes a diminishing market due to crashes, airplanes rotting, etc.  It isn’t 1980.  If you really want to fly for the next 20-30yrs find the most solid GA plane you can because in 20yrs my F will be 77yrs old…If you find a great Mooney seize it but odds are it isn’t out there. 

Thanks for the advice, but I'm set on a Mooney. No other aircraft delivers a better performance/cost ratio IMO. The only thing that comes close is a Gen1 SR20, but they're about as sexy as flying a 1994 Camry.

 

 

[M20F]

1 minute ago, bigmo said:

Thanks for the advice, but I'm set on a Mooney. No other aircraft delivers a better performance/cost ratio IMO. The only thing that comes close is a Gen1 SR20, but they're about as sexy as flying a 1994 Camry.

 

 

If you are willing to be patient then all things are possible.  I would reach out to Jimmy Garrison at Gmax and he can probably speed you finding your desired plane. 
 
As for operating cost ratio, fuel is generally the lowest of your annual expenses as an owner.  You will find cost ratio is entirely based on the initial quality of the airframe. 1-2 GPH +/- or +/- 10kts isn’t even a rounding error.   

[super-fly]

Sounds almost exactly like what I just bought, except mine is a C and has the J cowl.  The avionics and engine alone (my two main criteria) are worth about what I paid, plus as a first time owner, I was willing to pay a little more for a turnkey plane rather than a project.

[KLRDMD]

On 8/19/2024 at 4:08 PM, bigmo said:

Thanks for the advice, but I'm set on a Mooney. No other aircraft delivers a better performance/cost ratio IMO. The only thing that comes close is a Gen1 SR20, but they're about as sexy as flying a 1994 Camry.

Since you brought it up. I would offer the SR20 G2 provides the best value today in the Cirrus line. A friend of mine picked me up in Las Vegas last week and flew me home to Tucson. This was in an Ovation 3. I made the same flight, same route, same altitude, and virtually identical winds two weeks prior in my SR20 G2. The Ovation saved 13 minutes but burned 3 gallons more than the Cirrus. I would imagine an Ovation slowed to SR20 speeds would burn about the same amount of fuel, maybe even just a bit less, over the trip.

You get a 49" wide cabin, two doors, modern avionics, great autopilot, and an airframe that's less than 20 years old versus 40-60 years old. Insurance is cheaper on the Cirrus for a similar hull value due to the fixed gear.

[N201MKTurbo]

 Reminds me of when Rene and I were flying his Citation from Gateway to Palomar. We were getting ready to go and saw a Mooney take off. We farted around for a bit and then flew to SD. We landed and we’re securing the jet when the same Mooney landed. The jet cost about 10 times as much to make the flight.

[bigmo]

Oops, forgot I never closed this thread out. Jimmy came through and found me the perfect airplane. I could not be happier.

 

 

[Echo]

Too much for an F model IMO.  

[bigmo]

8 hours ago, Echo said:

Too much for an F model IMO.  

I wound up with another F (that Jimmy found me). Met ALL of my needs and all but one of my wants (have to manage my vertical myself on approaches). My list was NDH, low time motor, WAAS navigator, autopilot w/ alt hold, and not ugly. Needed nothing, and could not be happier. Aircraft was owned by LASAR in the 80's & 90's, so it has a LOT of mods. Not to mention, she's a looker.