Buying a used Ovation 2

[Jose Jo]

Hello everybody, I hope I am posting in the right place.

I am not a Mooney pilot and have never been but I am fascinated with the Ovation. A friend of mine got a Lancair Super ES and started continental travel which made me envious !

There are very few Ovations in Europe and I tried unsuccessfully to buy one 1 year ago. I had agreed the deal on a 2006 closed the price and had ordered the deposit but the owner found somebody else that offered a bit more when the deal was closed. I thought aviation was a place only for gentlemen but was wrong. Soon after I found an SR22, we trusted the guy and were badly cheated as it had a lot of concealed problems. Anyhow a lot of work but it was all solved. I transitioned from an Archer III, a beautiful and forgiving plane. The Sr22 G2 is a nice plane, very comfortable but I am not impressed. Payload is not great and typical landing speed is 80 knots which is a problem in the typical short fields found all over Europe for a newbie. We struggle to get anything close to 160Kts with reasonable FF. I have tried FL165 but no real advantage except crossing mountains. The engine is low hours and in perfect condition. One of the problems for us is the range. At best economy 55% LOP its reasonable to stop at about 650Nm, you are already in reserves. Nothing to do with the POH which is for marketing !. I compared with other Sr22 G2 in flight and exact same results.

A high performance plane should be in the 1000Nm range regardless of your bladder (carries 81 gallons full).

The question I am presenting (and grateful for any advice) is that I am checking a 2004 G1000 Ovation with 130 gallon tanks full FIKI and 1800 hours. I don't want to make previous mistakes. It had a prop strike and new governor and propeller, load test seemed to be ok. The FIKI pumps need to be changed, speed brakes aren't working, oxygen system needs overhaul with new tank. WAAS upgrade GIA63W (maybe I am wrong with the model) and updates = 30.000 dollars. Auto pilot STEC 55X which I don't like very much. Compressions are in the low 60s and with those hours probably needs an overhaul very very soon (€60.000). The price is 235000 dollars. I know it's impossible to evaluate without thorough inspection, but I would be very grateful for some opinions. Bear in mind that Europe is not a paradise like the US and workshops will be x2 or x3 compared to your prices.

Thank you in advance

[ArtVandelay]

Your payload with FIKI and full long range tanks might be only enough for you and 1 other passenger.
Speed brakes may be something simple (lose connection, bad circuit breaker, etc), if not it will be $2000 to overhaul them.
Prop strikes in the states require a tear down and inspection, I don’t know what a load test is.
I assume oxygen tanks are past certification dates, here in the states you can have them recertified.
I would look for one here in the USA, there’s 16 models on controller for sale, apparently you can keep the US N registration. A ferry flight in an Ovation would be relatively easy.

[Z W]

The Mooney is also going to have a final approach speed near 80 knots.  Maybe 75 knots.  

1,000 NM of real world range is only going to be possible with tailwinds, or maybe at significantly reduced power settings, like 55%, and matching reduced airspeeds.

Mooneys are great planes, just trying to set your real world expectations.  You will gain some performance over a Cirrus, due to retractable gear, narrower cabin, and not carrying a parachute, but the planes are in the same class and do roughly the same things.  I'm not sure a plane exists that can land a lot slower than 80 knots, but also take off and fly 1,000 NM at reasonable speeds.  The laws of physics and aerodynamics start to get in the way.

Good luck with your search.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Jose Jo said:

Hello everybody, I hope I am posting in the right place.

I am not a Mooney pilot and have never been but I am fascinated with the Ovation. A friend of mine got a Lancair Super ES and started continental travel which made me envious !

There are very few Ovations in Europe and I tried unsuccessfully to buy one 1 year ago. I had agreed the deal on a 2006 closed the price and had ordered the deposit but the owner found somebody else that offered a bit more when the deal was closed. I thought aviation was a place only for gentlemen but was wrong. Soon after I found an SR22, we trusted the guy and were badly cheated as it had a lot of concealed problems. Anyhow a lot of work but it was all solved. I transitioned from an Archer III, a beautiful and forgiving plane. The Sr22 G2 is a nice plane, very comfortable but I am not impressed. Payload is not great and typical landing speed is 80 knots which is a problem in the typical short fields found all over Europe for a newbie. We struggle to get anything close to 160Kts with reasonable FF. I have tried FL165 but no real advantage except crossing mountains. The engine is low hours and in perfect condition. One of the problems for us is the range. At best economy 55% LOP its reasonable to stop at about 650Nm, you are already in reserves. Nothing to do with the POH which is for marketing !. I compared with other Sr22 G2 in flight and exact same results.

A high performance plane should be in the 1000Nm range regardless of your bladder (carries 81 gallons full).

The question I am presenting (and grateful for any advice) is that I am checking a 2004 G1000 Ovation with 130 gallon tanks full FIKI and 1800 hours. I don't want to make previous mistakes. It had a prop strike and new governor and propeller, load test seemed to be ok. The FIKI pumps need to be changed, speed brakes aren't working, oxygen system needs overhaul with new tank. WAAS upgrade GIA63W (maybe I am wrong with the model) and updates = 30.000 dollars. Auto pilot STEC 55X which I don't like very much. Compressions are in the low 60s and with those hours probably needs an overhaul very very soon (€60.000). The price is 235000 dollars. I know it's impossible to evaluate without thorough inspection, but I would be very grateful for some opinions. Bear in mind that Europe is not a paradise like the US and workshops will be x2 or x3 compared to your prices.

Thank you in advance

Speed brakes x 2 About $6000

Fiki pumps x 2 About $6000 If the pumps are bad, the rest of the system needs resurrected, figure double the pump number, $12,000

O2 tank plus regulator O/H About $3000

WAAS upgrade.....Don't know if you can get it, but if you can find someone, $30,000 is reasonable

Cylinders in the low 60s on a Continental, no big deal. After borescope fly it if they scope good.

S-Tec55x, don't knock it, works good and it has an advantage over the GFC 700. With an AHRS failure, it still works and will fly the airplane. It is a rate based rather than attitude based unit. So when you have to fly the airplane off the standby attitude indicator, the S-Tec unit will be there, the GFC 700 likely not unless a Garmin standby attitude indicator has been installed with switching.

Real world a FIKI, G1000 Ovation with two passengers and 60 pounds of bags can carry at most 80 gallons of fuel with full TKS tank. If you run lean of peak at 12.3 gallons per hour figure 166 knot TAS. Figure 900 miles still air range with 45 min reserve.

 

 

 

 

[Danb]

You mentioned 130 gallon take which has no problem exceeding 1000NM range., My 130 gallon Bravo made 1200 often without giving up much if any speed. Prior to me extending the tanks the range was poor. It was the first addition made to a new plane and the best. Only reason I haven’t extended the Acclaim is due to useful load. If range is a priority so is LR. Tanks

D

[GeeBee]

7 hours ago, Danb said:

You mentioned 130 gallon take which has no problem exceeding 1000NM range., My 130 gallon Bravo made 1200 often without giving up much if any speed. Prior to me extending the tanks the range was poor. It was the first addition made to a new plane and the best. Only reason I haven’t extended the Acclaim is due to useful load. If range is a priority so is LR. Tanks

D

The issue is, FIKI, the TKS fluid weighs 9/gal x 6 gallons plus the weight of the equipment which is 66 pounds. An all up FIKI is 120 pounds off the payload or 20 gallons of fuel. It cuts down payload real fast. If you carry pilot + 1 at most 80 gallons of fuel at most. FIKI is something you have to want, not just nice to have.

[Utah20Gflyer]

Doesn’t sound like the current owner is maintaining the plane so if you buy it expect a lot of repairs to get it back to good working order.  Whatever you know about before buying assume it has 2x or 3x the number of issues you will find after purchase and you start flying it.  
 

 

[M20F]

You would probably be better served buying in the US and converting to EASA or just keeping a N registry versus buying in Europe.  
 
A lot more and better deals to be had in US.  If you want a Mooney call Jimmy Garrison. 
 
https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com

He can find it, get it to Europe, do whatever you need.  Best in the business and trustworthy. 

[dkkim73]

5 hours ago, M20F said:

You would probably be better served buying in the US and converting to EASA or just keeping a N registry versus buying in Europe.  

Along the above lines:

I have no direct aircraft experience in Europe, but hear various things and get the impression that - supply is limited - support is limited - counter-party trust issues may be worse, at least in places - less help vetting aircraft. 

There are European pilots who post here, e.g. @Sue Bon and @Ibra, who might have more insights. 

In the US, there are a lot of Mooney pilots, and Mooney mechanics, which will likely also help if you wish to acquire a trusted broker or confidante, and also if you want to get the plane "greened-up" here, which might be less expensive. You can buy from a trusted broker (collect references here, like the above to Mr. Garrison), or hire a broker to buy for you from someone else. 

HTH,

David

 

[Ibra]

There is a nice Ovation with FIKI in Toussus (LFPN) on N registry. Yes, there are not many around in Europe but if you are patient, they do come around

Ultimately, you can buy in US as there are more choices then fly it back (even keep it on N-reg and fly with dual FAA/EASA papers, there are some advantages to stay with FAA: for example, one “gotcha” is 310hp MidWest STC while in EASA you are limited to 280hp in older models)

The 1000nm range is very good but it’s mostly to skip airports or countries that one want to skip (handling, expensive fuel, ppr…), in practice, you are in different country after 100nm 

You will not use 1000nm that often, however, if you do then you are in Ovation territory (or Eagle or Encore with higher useful load), I am not sure where you are based? or what mission you have in mind (Morocco-Iceland or UK-Greece)? grass airfields in UK? 1800ft pavements in Switzerland?

Edited May 30, 2024 by Ibra

[Jose Jo]

On 5/28/2024 at 12:33 PM, ArtVandelay said:

Your payload with FIKI and full long range tanks might be only enough for you and 1 other passenger.
Speed brakes may be something simple (lose connection, bad circuit breaker, etc), if not it will be $2000 to overhaul them.
Prop strikes in the states require a tear down and inspection, I don’t know what a load test is.
I assume oxygen tanks are past certification dates, here in the states you can have them recertified.
I would look for one here in the USA, there’s 16 models on controller for sale, apparently you can keep the US N registration. A ferry flight in an Ovation would be relatively easy.

thank you, sorry I missed this message; very interesting 

[Jose Jo]

Hello Ibra, great post. 

On 5/28/2024 at 12:40 PM, Z W said:

The Mooney is also going to have a final approach speed near 80 knots.  Maybe 75 knots.  

1,000 NM of real world range is only going to be possible with tailwinds, or maybe at significantly reduced power settings, like 55%, and matching reduced airspeeds.

Mooneys are great planes, just trying to set your real world expectations.  You will gain some performance over a Cirrus, due to retractable gear, narrower cabin, and not carrying a parachute, but the planes are in the same class and do roughly the same things.  I'm not sure a plane exists that can land a lot slower than 80 knots, but also take off and fly 1,000 NM at reasonable speeds.  The laws of physics and aerodynamics start to get in the way.

Good luck with your search.

we fly most of the time at 55% or less, in Europe fuel price is very high. We are in northern Portugal so any interesting mission is at least 1000Nm, I don't mind stopping but this is not the US: bureaucracy, no fuel, fuel with a special card, handling, landing permits, closing very early, no IFR........and then the weather and the peace of mind knowing you can reach anywhere if your destination is closed.

If I am far from MTOW and little fuel I would need a very long runway for the SR22 at 80 Knots. Usually it would be more like 74

Thank you

[Jose Jo]

On 5/28/2024 at 1:46 PM, GeeBee said:

Speed brakes x 2 About $6000

Fiki pumps x 2 About $6000 If the pumps are bad, the rest of the system needs resurrected, figure double the pump number, $12,000

O2 tank plus regulator O/H About $3000

WAAS upgrade.....Don't know if you can get it, but if you can find someone, $30,000 is reasonable

Cylinders in the low 60s on a Continental, no big deal. After borescope fly it if they scope good.

S-Tec55x, don't knock it, works good and it has an advantage over the GFC 700. With an AHRS failure, it still works and will fly the airplane. It is a rate based rather than attitude based unit. So when you have to fly the airplane off the standby attitude indicator, the S-Tec unit will be there, the GFC 700 likely not unless a Garmin standby attitude indicator has been installed with switching.

Real world a FIKI, G1000 Ovation with two passengers and 60 pounds of bags can carry at most 80 gallons of fuel with full TKS tank. If you run lean of peak at 12.3 gallons per hour figure 166 knot TAS. Figure 900 miles still air range with 45 min reserve.

 

 

 

 

thank you, very useful info; I thought it was more expensive. WAAS could be in a portable or removable unit saving a fortune

[Jose Jo]

On 5/28/2024 at 2:02 PM, Danb said:

You mentioned 130 gallon take which has no problem exceeding 1000NM range., My 130 gallon Bravo made 1200 often without giving up much if any speed. Prior to me extending the tanks the range was poor. It was the first addition made to a new plane and the best. Only reason I haven’t extended the Acclaim is due to useful load. If range is a priority so is LR. Tanks

D

and your payload ? 1200Nm alone or with passenger ?

[Jose Jo]

On 5/29/2024 at 2:54 PM, M20F said:

You would probably be better served buying in the US and converting to EASA or just keeping a N registry versus buying in Europe.  
 
A lot more and better deals to be had in US.  If you want a Mooney call Jimmy Garrison. 
 
https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com

He can find it, get it to Europe, do whatever you need.  Best in the business and trustworthy. 

Thank you, I will do straight away !

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Jose Jo said:

thank you, very useful info; I thought it was more expensive. WAAS could be in a portable or removable unit saving a fortune

A portable WAAS unit will not allow you to do LPV approaches or allow you to file destination and alternate based upon GPS approaches. 

[Jose Jo]

8 hours ago, GeeBee said:

A portable WAAS unit will not allow you to do LPV approaches or allow you to file destination and alternate based upon GPS approaches. 

got it !

then the alternative is no less than €30000

[Danb]

My Bravos useful loadwas approximately 1040, no TKS,no A/C. etc. . My wife and I are about 300 lb with light bags and other stuff add 50 or so lbs etc leaving 690 available for fuel or around 115 gal, removal of rear seats helps another 5 gal. So 120 gal at 18Gph at 180 yields 1200. Not taking in conditions such as winds, altitude etc. Our Mooneys with LR tanks are quite capable. Obviously it shows as a great two person platform. Don’t cut it close relax and be safe 

[Jose Jo]

12 hours ago, Danb said:

My Bravos useful loadwas approximately 1040, no TKS,no A/C. etc. . My wife and I are about 300 lb with light bags and other stuff add 50 or so lbs etc leaving 690 available for fuel or around 115 gal, removal of rear seats helps another 5 gal. So 120 gal at 18Gph at 180 yields 1200. Not taking in conditions such as winds, altitude etc. Our Mooneys with LR tanks are quite capable. Obviously it shows as a great two person platform. Don’t cut it close relax and be safe 

that's a lot !, is it possible to fly a turbo at, lets say, 55% power ?

[Danb]

Sure is..

[dkkim73]

18 hours ago, Jose Jo said:

that's a lot !, is it possible to fly a turbo at, lets say, 55% power ?

That's the flexibility that the Bravo and Acclaim offer (and other turbos I would imagine). You can fly it in different modes for different reasons. Low power, far lean-of-peak for efficiency and going easy on the engine, or push it up and get someplace fast. I've really become a turbo(normalizer) convert, but I also live in a mountainous place so it was initially forced upon me ;). The fast climb and ability to get above ice and turbulence is nice, too. 

[dkkim73]

6 hours ago, Danb said:

Sure is..

@Danb what kind of  "weight envelope" are you practically using with the Acclaim? I feel a bit weight-limited at times. The 100-gal tanks with TKS but no AC seem perfect for my situation, but need some planning. E.g. I had it fueled to 88gal in prep for tankering fuel to and from on my commute, then scrubbed due to wx. Now I can hear the pucks accusing me in my dreams as it sits, and any training flight needs to be a bit longer to get below MLDW, and more so to take any pax.

Longer term: I probably need to verify whether the TKS fluid was included in WB, and my transition instructor suggested re-weighing the aircraft at some point. 

D

 

PS. For Jose's purposes, the point would be there's still flexibility, though the envelope is different with different models and specific planes. 

[Danb]

Dave it’s a 2 person plane for us which is ok we’re in the same situation as you I have to weigh everything to stay within or under the useful load.
I’ve heard but didn’t weigh the back seats there 30 lbs ? I may  remove them if necessary. Luckily me and my wife aren’t big between us we try to stay 300lbs or less, crazy to diet for flying. Apparently my acclaim is over 100 lbs more than my bravo which removed my notion of getting LR tanks as I previously had, I really do miss them.  I’d get them no doubt, it was the first upgrade I did on the Bravo when I purchased it. The Acclaim can be flown in a lot of differing ways I’ve been going out practicing different setups all LOP that’s the advantage over my Bravo which didn’t like LOP, so I basically flew it 18-20 GPH it was happy and fast. The Acclaim does the same on 4-6 less GPH. Lance has the LR tanks and can do awesome long trips in it, I’d gladly have them instead of TKS, I avoid the need of them but although I once needed and so at least I used them.
Keep trying to figure out your setups to maximize the plane.

Hang in there

D

 

[M20F-1968]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:40 AM, Z W said:

The Mooney is also going to have a final approach speed near 80 knots.  Maybe 75 knots.  

1,000 NM of real world range is only going to be possible with tailwinds, or maybe at significantly reduced power settings, like 55%, and matching reduced airspeeds.

Mooneys are great planes, just trying to set your real world expectations.  You will gain some performance over a Cirrus, due to retractable gear, narrower cabin, and not carrying a parachute, but the planes are in the same class and do roughly the same things.  I'm not sure a plane exists that can land a lot slower than 80 knots, but also take off and fly 1,000 NM at reasonable speeds.  The laws of physics and aerodynamics start to get in the way.

Good luck with your search.

My turbonormalized F (now essentially a J) carries 90 gallons, is a 160kt airplane at 10,000 ft 75% power, 168 kts at 100% power, a 175-knot airplane at 75% power at 17,500 ft, burns 11.5 gallons per hour, has a useful load of 985 lbs, and a range of >1000 miles at least depending upon conditions.  Over the numbers at 70 kts, start flare at 65 kts and land full flaps approx 60 kts.

John Breda

[Sue Bon]

I heard about an Ovation owner at my home airport looking to sell as he wants to buy a Meridian or Malibu or something. If you want, I can look into it for you. It's a N reg and is apparently a great plane. Garmin 1000 WAAS and FIKI. Not too sure about much else, but I'm happy to ask him...