What happened to the post about N1167J?

[LANCECASPER]

I was looking for the accident post about the 231 that went down in 2023 in Colorado (N1167J) that was on a ferry flight back to the NW. I can't seem to find it. If it was deleted that's too bad since there were some valuable decision-making lessons. If I'm looking in the wrong place please direct me.

What made me think of it is that I got an e-mail from BAS saying that  N1167J was being parted out. (https://baspartsales.com/blog/new-in-the-aircraft-salvage-hangar-february-23-2024/?utm_campaign=New In The Hangar&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=295299396&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8b87hxz3aBYIyksqUkLfYrhSsliTn88BUSp50VhtHqVBwsTewEo08TbuRft4Yz1RxYaAYDeyLXE43Ap85vwZpRl_pMbQ&utm_content=295299396&utm_source=hs_email)

[toto]

Definitely seems to have been deleted:

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/47008-mooney-n1167j-m20k-down-in-colorado/
 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

I was looking for the accident post about the 231 that went down in 2023 in Colorado (N1167J) that was on a ferry flight back to the NW. I can't seem to find it. If it was deleted that's too bad since there were some valuable decision-making lessons. If I'm looking in the wrong place please direct me.

What made me think of it is that I got an e-mail from BAS saying that  N1167J was being parted out. (https://baspartsales.com/blog/new-in-the-aircraft-salvage-hangar-february-23-2024/?utm_campaign=New In The Hangar&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=295299396&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8b87hxz3aBYIyksqUkLfYrhSsliTn88BUSp50VhtHqVBwsTewEo08TbuRft4Yz1RxYaAYDeyLXE43Ap85vwZpRl_pMbQ&utm_content=295299396&utm_source=hs_email)

That's weird.  Even when the OP deletes a topic, I thought the posts from others remained.  Guess not.

[EricJ]

It was getting unfavorable toward the pilot, and IIRC it was a relative of the OP so I wasn't surprised when it got deleted.   It's always kind of a bummer when threads get deleted, even if there's contention, as the info and insights are often useful.

[MikeOH]

The other thread that mysteriously disappeared recently was the one about Hartzell being bought by that investment company and raising the prices.  Wonder what got that deleted?

[hammdo]

Hum….

Fairy’s?

-Don

[midlifeflyer]

It seems to have been deleted after the NTSB came out with it's report. 

[LANCECASPER]

54 minutes ago, Aviationist said:

Is that the one where Mike made wild assumptions and then when someone involved showed up he told them they didn’t know what they were talking about and nobody actually knows what happened?

 

 

Nope this is the one where it looked like fuel exhaustion and that’s exactly what it turned out to be.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Aviationist said:

Is that the one where Mike made wild assumptions and then when someone involved showed up he told them they didn’t know what they were talking about and nobody actually knows what happened?

No it’s the one where Mike called it exactly as it looked (fuel exhaustion) and the FAA report report agreed.

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

The other thread that mysteriously disappeared recently was the one about Hartzell being bought by that investment company and raising the prices.  Wonder what got that deleted?

Are they an advertiser?

[MikeOH]

24 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Are they an advertiser?

Good theory! However, I have no idea since, as a supporter, I don't see any ads

[Shadrach]

8 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Good theory! However, I have no idea since, as a supporter, I don't see any ads

Same…

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, Aviationist said:

I believe I said it was fuel exhaustion. Mike said it was because it had been sitting and it crashed because it was in poor condition. 

I stand corrected. I thought Mike had suggested simple fuel mismanagement and you had suggested a mechanical/maintenance issue leading to fuel exhaustion (as the OP of that thread stated).  If that’s not the case, I apologize for the mischaracterization. 

[Echo]

I think 1980, like Mooney Doc took his ball and went home.  I stated that I did not like having pilots names or Mooney's on their belly in a thread that did both.  All that and apparently other threads are gone.

[Shadrach]

On 2/25/2024 at 8:20 AM, Echo said:

I think 1980, like Mooney Doc took his ball and went home.  I stated that I did not like having pilots names or Mooney's on their belly in a thread that did both.  All that and apparently other threads are gone.

 

That is unfortunate. That thread was full of useful insights into unfortunate events. If I screw up and anyone can learn from what I did, feel free to discuss ad nauseam. Sometimes personal information is important to the story. We’ve had two accidents within 30 miles of my home where personal information contributed to the total picture. Both we’re in Gaithersburg Md. The Mooney pilot that flew into the power line tower, flew a Cherokee 6 into the ground during high DA operations decades before he decided to descend below minimums into a tower.

A local Dr. stalled his Embraur Phenom on an IFR approach into Montgomery Co Airpark. He killed himself, everyone on board and a mother and two children in a house. He had a previous incident just 4 years earlier at the same airport where he lost control of a TBM700 and departed the runway. 

In both of these cases and many others, the personality, past decision making and previous event history of the pilot are an important part of the story. Sure the thought of having one’s name and images of one's aircraft published on the internet after an embarrassing if not fatal incident is uncomfortable. However, personal reputation is something you risk when you endeavor to do something like fly an airplane…. Or even drive a car. If one puts a car into the front of a convenience store there are going to be pictures in the paper along side the name of the driver.

[Echo]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

 

That is unfortunate. That thread was full of useful insights into unfortunate events. If I screw up and anyone can learn from what I did, feel free to discuss ad nauseam. Sometime personal information is important to the story. We’ve had two within 30 miles of my home we’re personal information contributed to he total picture. Bot we’re at Gaithersburg. The Mooney that landed in the power line tower, flew a Cherokee 6 into the ground during high DA operations decades before he decided to descend below minimums into a tower.

The local Dr that stalled his Embraur Phenom on an IFR approach into Montgomery Co Airpark. He killed himself, everyone on board and a mother and two children in a house. He had a previous incident just 4 years earlier at the same airport where  he lost control of a TBM700 and departed the runway. 
 

In both of these cases and many others, the personality,  past decision making and previous event history of the pilot are an important part of the story. Sure the thought of having one’s name and Aircraft published on the internet after an embarrassing if not fatal incident is uncomfortable. However, personal reputation is something you risk when you endeavor to do something like flying airplane…. Or even driving a car. If puts a car into the front of a convenience store there are going to be pictures in the paper along side the name of the driver.

I didn't say don't do it.  I said I do not like seeing it.  It is my opinion and I stand by it.  I see nothing gained in showing a Mooney on a runway on its belly with bent prop.  I see no benefit in doxing a Mooney owner on a Mooney site.  Tell the story.  Learn the lessons.  Making it personal?  No thanks.  I was doxed here years ago out of pettyness from another.  I personally could care less as it reflected more on that individuals character than my own.  Ross you told the story of other incidents, but you did not share names or show photos.  Leave that to the news and the legal system imo.

Edited February 25 by Echo

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Echo said:

I didn't say don't do it.  I said I do not like seeing it.  It is my opinion and I stand by it.  I see nothing gained in showing a Mooney on a runway on its belly with bent prop.  I see no benefit in doxing a Mooney on a Mooney site.  Tell the story.  Learn the lessons.  Making it personal?  No thanks.  I was doxed here years ago out of pettyness from another.  I personally could care less as it reflected more on that individuals character than my own.  Ross you told the story of other incidents, but you did not share names or show photos.  Leave that to the news and the legal system imo.

Doxing an anonymous individual on social media out of pettiness is one thing.  Discussing a person’s publicly available information and actions is quite another. Both are uncomfortable for individual being discussed. Only one is done with malice.

[Echo]

3 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Doxing an anonymous individual on social media out of pettiness is one thing.  Discussing a person’s publicly available information and actions is quite another. Both are uncomfortable for individual being discussed. Only one is done with malice with intent to cause harm.

What benefit is gained?  Making them uncomfortable is the goal to create behavioral change?  Please explain.  Again, I am all about telling the story of what happened and what contributed to learn and hopefully not do the same.

[Echo]

On the deleted thread I gave detailed information (for the third, fourth, more?) again on my gear up while under instruction.  I personally outted myself.  I didn't have someone else out me on a public forum by name.

[Echo]

One of my worst experiences in life and definitely in aviation.  Seeing another Mooney on its belly just makes me have empathy and sadness for the others that experienced the event.  Reliving that visually is not great.

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, Echo said:

On the deleted thread I gave detailed information (for the third, fourth, more?) again on my gear up while under instruction.  I personally outted myself.  I didn't have someone else out me on a public forum by name.

Do you feel like you’ve been judged personally because you had a gear up? That’s not been my impression.  The details of the incident are not top of mine for me but as I recall you had an instructor in the plane. There are instructors that I have flown with that make me feel my brain power has been cut in a half. It’s a weird friction in the cockpit that degrades rather than improves performance. I have worked through it with some not all. I have also Phone with instructors that know how to bring out the best in their students. Sometimes $hit happens. I’ve never thought any less of you because of your gear up. And I’m 99.9% sure you’ll never have another.

[Echo]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Do you feel like you’ve been judged personally because you had a gear up? That’s  been my impression?  The details of the incident or not top of mine for me but as I recall you had an instructor in the plane.

No Ross.  I could care less.  THAT is why I share the experience.  What I don't like is reliving the experience by seeing other Mooney's broken on a runway.  What I don't understand is what is learned/gained by sharing their names?  If someone wants to creep on an FAA databae, whatever gets them through the day.  To what end I ask?  Just because you can does not mean you should.  I still remember a Mooneyspace member saying "well you shared info on a public database so" when he discussed a purchase I was going to make and that some would come in between the deal, i.e. make a better offer to owner.  WTF say I.  Humans.

Edited February 25 by Echo

[Echo]

Here is an example (one of many) where 1980 provided excellent information.  No name associated with pilot.  Just good detailed accident information that was helpful.

[Shadrach]

21 minutes ago, Echo said:

No Ross.  I could care less.  THAT is why I share the experience.  What I don't like is reliving the experience by seeing other Mooney's broken on a runway.  What I don't understand is what is learned/gained by sharing their names?  If someone wants to creep on an FAA databae, whatever gets them through the day.  To what end I ask?  Just because you can does not mean you should.  I still remember a Mooneyspace member saying "well you shared info on a public database so" when he discussed a purchase I was going to make and that some would come in between the deal, i.e. make a better offer to owner.  WTF say I.  Humans.

My post needed proofread. It was meant to read that I did not get the impression that you’d been judged. It’s been edited accordingly.

getting involved in a sale is a totally different situation.

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, Aviationist said:

I believe it was said to be fuel exhaustion. 1980 said it was because it had been sitting and it crashed because it was in poor condition. 

Both. 

The unhelpful probable cause in the NTSB report is: "The pilot's inadequate fuel planning and improper in-flight decision making, which resulted in a total loss of engine power due to fuel exhaustion."

It had been sitting on the ramp at my home airport for about 10 years. Rotted tires, birds nests, who knows what in the interior, the works. The buyer and mechanic inspected, bought it, and did enough work on it to get a ferry permit. Turns out the link I provided is a disappearing one but if you go to the NTSB aviation accident search page and enter the tail number you will get there. The docket contains the ferry permit and the pilot's report to the NTSB. 

The pilot's report is interesting. This was a multi leg trip and the pilot reported that he measured actual fuel use at two fuel stops before Colorado and, based on that, fuel flow was within expected parameters. He "should" have still had about 1.5 hours fuel on board when he ran out on final to KLAA. 

The stops also "should" have been enough to preclude the existence of a leak, although in a trashed ramp queen, I'm not sure I would preclude the possibility of a leak (or some other problem) developing on that third leg. I wondered whether the original fuel gauges were operating at all.

My post saying all this may have been the last post before the old thread was deleted.  Not suer why. I said nothing negative about the pilot.

Edited February 25 by midlifeflyer