Cruising at 17,500 in a M20J

[A64Pilot]

Ref hypoxia and symptoms.

Being military we all rode the chamber, every one of us just have gone through WOC D etc and due to our age, we were all under 30 as it was the limit, were in about the best shape of our lives, nobody overweight, no health issues etc.

Anyway the majority of the people had no idea they were impaired, I was first to put the mask back on so I got to watch, but everyone thought they were doing fine, but they were seriously impaired, couldn’t recite the alphabet etc. I mean stupid, you have to see it to believe it.

So what I’m saying is you cannot rely on you feeling symptoms and take action, you think your fine, but aren’t.

I guess I was an outlier, it’s not that I knew I was impaired so much as I didn’t like the feeling, hard to explain but I didn’t like it and put the mask back on, I got anxious.

If you get a chamber ride take aspirin before hand as it’s likely your going to get a headache, some worse than others.

The biggest thing it taught me, and I think the purpose of doing it was to show that you cannot self diagnose, that everyone gets stupid 

[GeeBee]

Aspirin thins the blood and reduces oxygen carrying ability.

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, CCAS said:

I'm certainly not an expert (I'm not an A&P, nor a test pilot, and I've only got about 350 hours of IO-360 Mooney time) but after taking a look at some of your indications I had a few observations and comments. 

I can't speak to the numbers, but wanted to say that's an impressive first post.  Come back more often.

[Fly Boomer]

14 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

If you get a chamber ride take aspirin before hand as it’s likely your going to get a headache, some worse than others.

I used to travel commercial a lot, and it took me years to figure out that at a cabin altitude of 8,000 or so I was always going to arrive with a headache -- especially at the end of an eight- or 10- or 12-hour flight.  The only cure is oxygen, but that's not very convenient when flying commercial.

[Pinecone]

4 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Aspirin thins the blood and reduces oxygen carrying ability.

Blood thinners don't work that way.  They inhibit clotting, not make the blood physically thinner.

[Pinecone]

There was sort of mid air a number of years go.  One plane at FL180, the other at 17,500.  But not quite on altitude for either.

Props of one chopped through the fuselage of the other several times.  Both landed safely.

[GeeBee]

42 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Blood thinners don't work that way.  They inhibit clotting, not make the blood physically thinner.

 But as you said they are called “thinners” All of them reduce the O2 capacity of blood

[Pinecone]

They aren't really thinners.  The inhibit clotting.  That is why you need to be off them for a few days before surgery.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

They aren't really thinners.  The inhibit clotting.  That is why you need to be off them for a few days before surgery.

The question is do they inhibit hemoglobin function by volume of blood. I don’t know the answer to that question.

Iterestingly, not only do they inhibit clotting, buy some work to eliminate existing clots. Years ago I had a DVT in my left calf in an area where I had suffered severe trauma to my leg many years before. A short term regimen of Rivaroxaban (Xarelto) eliminated the DVT well inside of three months. 

The majority of the previously mentioned injury was actually caused by blood thinners being used as a prophylactic to prevent clotting around a possible damaged section of artery after a severe knee dislocation. As it turned out the artery was fine. However the blood thinners prevented the soft tissue damage around my knee from coagulating and it continued bleeding out into my leg. I developed compartment syndrome and the only way to save my leg was to perform a four compartment fasciotomy (Google it if you have a strong stomach). Way more trauma than the original knee injury, and likely cause of the DVT many years later.

My AME and the FAA were surprisingly easy to deal with regarding the DVT.

[Pinecone]

19 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The question is do they inhibit hemoglobin function by volume of blood. I don’t know the answer to that question.

AFAIK, no, they do not.  Just affect clotting.

[Will.iam]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:41 AM, A64Pilot said:

Ref hypoxia and symptoms.

Being military we all rode the chamber, every one of us just have gone through WOC D etc and due to our age, we were all under 30 as it was the limit, were in about the best shape of our lives, nobody overweight, no health issues etc.

Anyway the majority of the people had no idea they were impaired, I was first to put the mask back on so I got to watch, but everyone thought they were doing fine, but they were seriously impaired, couldn’t recite the alphabet etc. I mean stupid, you have to see it to believe it.

So what I’m saying is you cannot rely on you feeling symptoms and take action, you think your fine, but aren’t.

I guess I was an outlier, it’s not that I knew I was impaired so much as I didn’t like the feeling, hard to explain but I didn’t like it and put the mask back on, I got anxious.

If you get a chamber ride take aspirin before hand as it’s likely your going to get a headache, some worse than others.

The biggest thing it taught me, and I think the purpose of doing it was to show that you cannot self diagnose, that everyone gets stupid 

That chamber ride unlike the airplane has very little ventilation and with a group of 8 to 12 people all having their intestinal tracts expanding everyone is letting out farts so the first inhale smell of the stench of ass even hypoxic is not enough to dull the smell. As far as symptoms most seem to mimic being drunk, although not all cause I get the funky chicken in the arm, which I’ve never had when i drink. One symptom that I have found that seems everybody exhibits at the very beginning is an elevated heart rate as your body tries to adapt and get more oxygen to the brain. If that’s the case for you it’s easy either with an oximeter or even an Apple Watch to help show you when you’re going hypoxic.  

[Pinecone]

20 hours ago, Will.iam said:

That chamber ride unlike the airplane has very little ventilation and with a group of 8 to 12 people all having their intestinal tracts expanding everyone is letting out farts so the first inhale smell of the stench of ass even hypoxic is not enough to dull the smell. 

In USAF UPT everyone went out for Mexican food, heavy on the beans, the night before.  JUST to add to the experience.

 

[M20F]

6 hours ago, Pinecone said:

In USAF UPT everyone went out for Mexican food, heavy on the beans, the night before.  JUST to add to the experience.

 

 

Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.

 

[Will.iam]

11 hours ago, Pinecone said:

In USAF UPT everyone went out for Mexican food, heavy on the beans, the night before.  JUST to add to the experience.

 

So you’re the one. 

[A64Pilot]

On 2/16/2024 at 7:47 AM, GeeBee said:

Aspirin thins the blood and reduces oxygen carrying ability.

Your in a chamber, I think you’ll survive, but one wonders if it really does and of so by how much?

This is the only study I could find that actually tested for that, and they had multiple doses of significant amounts of aspirin. I know one study, is well just one study, but I’m no Physician either.

https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/1998/0801/p540.html

Maybe it doesn’t reduce oxygenation of the blood?

You had me thinking, because if you were right then we shouldn’t take aspirin when flying or at least maybe think about supplemental O2?

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Your in a chamber, I think you’ll survive, but one wonders if it really does and of so by how much?

This is the only study I could find that actually tested for that, and they had multiple doses of significant amounts of aspirin. I know one study, is well just one study, but I’m no Physician either.

https://www.aafp.org/pubs/afp/issues/1998/0801/p540.html

Maybe it doesn’t reduce oxygenation of the blood?

You had me thinking, because if you were right then we shouldn’t take aspirin when flying or at least maybe think about supplemental O2?

I have heard from very good physicians, cardiologists from this very board who say it does not affect Oxygen levels. Then I have heard from my mountain climbing friends (Everest climbers) who say it does. All I know is when I take it the day of a flight my O2 saturation decreases about 2%. So I don't know what to say, only relying on what I experience.