Questions about buying your first plane

[anthony.locurto]

Hi all,

I am looking to buy my first plane after successfully convincing my wife. My budget is $150k-$175 and my mission profile is very similar to @ewilliams93 :

I intend to do a lot of vacation trips with my wife within (300nm) and to the Midwest to visit family (700nm). I've already spoken with insurance and emailed Bryon at RPM about typical annual costs. 

I am looking at an M20J and I found a contender with GMax here. The hail damage doesn't bother me too much, and would actually make me feel better since I will need to keep it outside for a while. So I have a few questions:

1. At what point do you go from browsing to scheduling the prebuy. What other legwork should I do before I try to schedule the prebuy? I am all for a thorough prebuy inspection, but I don't want to spend the money on a plane that has red flags which don't require an mechanic to detect.
2. I am relatively new to the DC area and I don't have any Mooney or complex time. Does anyone know of good Mooney instructors at KGAI or KHEF (I live next to DCA, so anything close to this area)?
3. How did most of you take possession of your plane? Did you ferry it, fly it back with an instructor/friend, etc.? Are the logistics a nightmare?
4. How quickly do things happen once you close? Do you typically have enough time to schedule the pickup so an instructor can head up and grab the plane with you?
5. Since it will need to be a tie-down for now, do you have any tips for keeping that horrid DC swamp weather out (is flying 100 hrs/yr enough)? Does desiccant work at all?

Happy New Year in the mean time!  

[Ragsf15e]

26 minutes ago, anthony.locurto said:

Hi all,

I am looking to buy my first plane after successfully convincing my wife. My budget is $150k-$175 and my mission profile is very similar to @ewilliams93 :

I intend to do a lot of vacation trips with my wife within (300nm) and to the Midwest to visit family (700nm). I've already spoken with insurance and emailed Bryon at RPM about typical annual costs. 

I am looking at an M20J and I found a contender with GMax here. The hail damage doesn't bother me too much, and would actually make me feel better since I will need to keep it outside for a while. So I have a few questions:

1. At what point do you go from browsing to scheduling the prebuy. What other legwork should I do before I try to schedule the prebuy? I am all for a thorough prebuy inspection, but I don't want to spend the money on a plane that has red flags which don't require an mechanic to detect.
2. I am relatively new to the DC area and I don't have any Mooney or complex time. Does anyone know of good Mooney instructors at KGAI or KHEF (I live next to DCA, so anything close to this area)?
3. How did most of you take possession of your plane? Did you ferry it, fly it back with an instructor/friend, etc.? Are the logistics a nightmare?
4. How quickly do things happen once you close? Do you typically have enough time to schedule the pickup so an instructor can head up and grab the plane with you?
5. Since it will need to be a tie-down for now, do you have any tips for keeping that horrid DC swamp weather out (is flying 100 hrs/yr enough)? Does desiccant work at all?

Happy New Year in the mean time!  

Hi! Welcome!

Gmax is a great place to start.  He’s a straight shooter, so just ask him if there’s anything obvious that the airplane will need soon - paint, interior crappy, etc.  There shouldn’t be anything mechanically glaring from him, but a prebuy will still help you find expensive stuff that’s not obvious.  If they have the airplane you can ask if they’ll send you the logs electronically.  You probably want to know the basics of what year the engine was overhauled, how much it’s been flying, damage history, etc.  Also prop times.

DC is tough because you’ll definitely want a hanger but they’re expensive too!

The prebuy and any fixes will take a little while, so you might be able to find a cfi to fly it home for you.  Lots of good prebuy shops around GMax.  You can use an aircraft escrow service to handle the transaction.

good luck!

[Scott Ashton]

I bought 1533 from Jimmy a year and a half ago.    Very similar spec but w an Aero Comfort new interior.   Happy to share my experience with you if you want to chat.   Cell is 860-866-6750.

scott

[Flash]

26 minutes ago, anthony.locurto said:

Hi all,

I am looking to buy my first plane after successfully convincing my wife. My budget is $150k-$175 and my mission profile is very similar to @ewilliams93 :

I intend to do a lot of vacation trips with my wife within (300nm) and to the Midwest to visit family (700nm). I've already spoken with insurance and emailed Bryon at RPM about typical annual costs. 

I am looking at an M20J and I found a contender with GMax here. The hail damage doesn't bother me too much, and would actually make me feel better since I will need to keep it outside for a while. So I have a few questions:

1. At what point do you go from browsing to scheduling the prebuy. What other legwork should I do before I try to schedule the prebuy? I am all for a thorough prebuy inspection, but I don't want to spend the money on a plane that has red flags which don't require an mechanic to detect.
2. I am relatively new to the DC area and I don't have any Mooney or complex time. Does anyone know of good Mooney instructors at KGAI or KHEF (I live next to DCA, so anything close to this area)?
3. How did most of you take possession of your plane? Did you ferry it, fly it back with an instructor/friend, etc.? Are the logistics a nightmare?
4. How quickly do things happen once you close? Do you typically have enough time to schedule the pickup so an instructor can head up and grab the plane with you?
5. Since it will need to be a tie-down for now, do you have any tips for keeping that horrid DC swamp weather out (is flying 100 hrs/yr enough)? Does desiccant work at all?

Happy New Year in the mean time!  

Congratulations on your work so far. Here are some answers, with the caveat that I have bought a plane only once, and it was in 1999.

1. You have to request copies of the logbooks, and then you have to read through them carefully, looking for things like how many hours was the plane flown each year, and how many hours between oil changes (since the last engine overhaul), and what kind of entries do you find that are not typical, and what do they imply happened to the plane? If you like what you see, you should also then check for compliance with airworthiness directives. You can do this yourself or ask an A&P for help. I can't remember if I negotiated price before or after traveling to see the plane. I brought a mechanic I knew to do a prebuy; most people arrange for a shop near where the plane is to do the prebuy.

2. If you're in the DC area, I recommend considering basing at College Park (KCGS), which is where I used to be based. It's a block from the Green Line metro, and it's much less busy than KGAI or KHEF. It is within the FRZ, and that's a bit of a hassle, but only a bit of one. No hangars, but you don't really need one. My plane was tied down there for almost five years (2009-2010, 2012-2016). Runway is short, but it's long enough for an M20J and will prevent you from developing bad habits.

3. There's no time pressure in picking up the plane. You want to use the flight from wherever the plane is to wherever you will be based as a training flight. Having somebody ferry the flight is a waste unless you can't manage to schedule the time yourself. You won't have trouble finding an instructor willing to fly a Mooney; find one who has flown a Mooney before.

4. I wouldn't think that logistics in retrieving the plane are a worry at all (unless it's in another country or, perhaps, if it's in California and retrieving it would be a multi-day flight).

5. I used a Bruce's custom cover. Other brands of cover will do. Fly the plane regularly. You'll want to do that, anyway, or you wouldn't be buying a plane.

The plane you've identified has not flown all that much since its overhaul in 2020. 125 hours in (at least) three years is not great. I'd be curious what the logs show about how those hours were distributed between annuals.

The plane you've identified has not flown all that much since it was built. 1800 hours in almost 40 years. Again, I'd be interested in what the logs show. (Not a huge concern, perhaps, for years before the latest engine and prop overhauls.

DC is a great place to fly. Keep posting as you progress in your search and after you buy. You'll find plenty of suggestions here about how to use your Mooney once you have it. (Hints: Tangier Island, the Hudson River, Toronto Downtown Island Airport . . .)

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

52 minutes ago, anthony.locurto said:

Hi all,

I am looking to buy my first plane after successfully convincing my wife. My budget is $150k-$175 and my mission profile is very similar to @ewilliams93 :

I intend to do a lot of vacation trips with my wife within (300nm) and to the Midwest to visit family (700nm). I've already spoken with insurance and emailed Bryon at RPM about typical annual costs. 

I am looking at an M20J and I found a contender with GMax here. The hail damage doesn't bother me too much, and would actually make me feel better since I will need to keep it outside for a while. So I have a few questions:

1. At what point do you go from browsing to scheduling the prebuy. What other legwork should I do before I try to schedule the prebuy? I am all for a thorough prebuy inspection, but I don't want to spend the money on a plane that has red flags which don't require an mechanic to detect.
2. I am relatively new to the DC area and I don't have any Mooney or complex time. Does anyone know of good Mooney instructors at KGAI or KHEF (I live next to DCA, so anything close to this area)?
3. How did most of you take possession of your plane? Did you ferry it, fly it back with an instructor/friend, etc.? Are the logistics a nightmare?
4. How quickly do things happen once you close? Do you typically have enough time to schedule the pickup so an instructor can head up and grab the plane with you?
5. Since it will need to be a tie-down for now, do you have any tips for keeping that horrid DC swamp weather out (is flying 100 hrs/yr enough)? Does desiccant work at all?

Happy New Year in the mean time!  

At what point do you go from browsing to scheduling the prebuy.

You schedule after you have negotiated the price and have a signed contract in place with a deposit. Seller is then responsible for airworthy items found in pre-buy. If they agree to do the airworthy items and you back out you lose the deposit. 

[AdamJD]

Bought my first plane - an M20F 18 months ago from a private seller.  I'm based part time at GAI (where I've flown for 20 years) in a tie-down and fly often.  I also have a good friend and CFI based at CGE, but not a Mooney CFI.  I did my transition training with a Mooney CFI out of GAI - there are several and mine was good.  PM me if you want to chat about my experience through the purchase, training and maintenance.

PS - One good thing about GAI is the Mooney community there.  Along with RPM, there are 7 or 8 Mooney owners who actively communicate.  It's a good resource of like-minded pilots and owners to share and learn from.

[Pinecone]

@jetdriven is based at GAI.  A good resource for both a pre-buy and a look at the logs.  I used him to look at logs of several airplanes before I found the one I bought.

Also purchased through Jimmy Garrison at GMAX

As others have mentioned, you want a close look at the logbooks.  You get setup a deposit with an escrow company to get ready.  I used AeroSpace reports.   You can make an offer contingent on the log review and then the pre-buy.

Don't be discouraged if this one doesn't work out.  I went though 4 before I found the one I found the one I bought

[anthony.locurto]

Thank you all so much for your for your replies and encouragement, I really appreciate it! I have been going through a few logbooks and some of them have been more revealing than I anticipated. 

On 12/29/2023 at 9:47 AM, AdamJD said:

One good thing about GAI is the Mooney community there. 

I am looking forward to meeting the local community and visiting fellow Mooniacs across the US!

 

On 12/29/2023 at 1:01 AM, Flash said:

Keep posting as you progress in your search and after you buy.

I'll be sure to post my updates!

[Mufflerbearing]

When you purchase it and it's yours, why not fly it home?  I hired my instructor to fly mine home from Michigan to Idaho.  Awesome experience. 

If you do keep it out in the weather, be sure to look at or replace your fuel o rings to keep the water out of those tanks.

[anthony.locurto]

That’s what I am planning to do, but for this what do you usually pay? Do you pay for the instructors 1 way airfare and then the instruction time back? Do you pay the hourly rate for for the travel to and from? Etc. I’m sure you’d work it out with the instructor but just wondering how it’s typically structured. 

[802flyer]

That’s what I am planning to do, but for this what do you usually pay? Do you pay for the instructors 1 way airfare and then the instruction time back? Do you pay the hourly rate for for the travel to and from? Etc. I’m sure you’d work it out with the instructor but just wondering how it’s typically structured. 

I believe it is often a daily rate (X-hundred per day regardless of exact hours flown) plus expenses such as travel to/from, food, hotel, etc.

When I bought my plane, my insurance required 10 hours with a CFI since I was a fairly fresh instrument pilot without a complex endorsement. I bought the plane on the other side of the country, so rather than paying for two hotel rooms (CFI plus myself) to ferry it back together, I worked with a Mooney CFI that was local to the seller to do transition training from the seller's airport. He slept in his own bed every night so I only had to pay his daily rate (and bought lunch). We packed 2-3 days full of high-density training (pattern work, instrument approaches, etc.) which I think was much more valuable experience than paying a CFI for 10 hours of cruise flight home.
By the end of transition training I felt plenty comfortable ferrying the plane home solo, which was a very gratifying and confidence-inspiring trip.
Seemed like a better way to maximize flight hours per dollar as well as learning per dollar compared to paying a CFI to sit in the right seat for 4 hour legs with the autopilot on for the trip home. I'd definitely do it this way again.

[anthony.locurto]

So I was closing in on one of Jimmy's planes but the owner didn't want to fly the plane from NH to KGAI so I decided to walk away. I have found another plane that I am interested in: 1989 MOONEY M20J 201 Single Engine Piston for sale - 2423511 (trade-a-plane.com). The plane is located at Lockport, NY so I was thinking of reaching out to Chautauqua Aircraft Sales to see if they could help with the pre-buy inspection. Has anyone used them before?

Also, I welcome any feedback regarding the plane. 

[anthony.locurto]

So I made an offer on a 1977 J and it was accepted, but I didn’t realize it had a firewall forward horsepower plus engine stc. Doing some digging it seems like these engines aren’t well liked. Does anyone have any experience with them? More concerned with reliability and the threat the plane becoming a money pit (more than what a plane usually is). 

[Rusty Pilot]

You may be able to get a hangar quickly at Shanno KEZF.  KEZF has an experienced Mooney mechanic on the field and a couple of good Mooney instructors and a few Mooney owners are based out of there.  I know the distance and traffic are tough, but it will have you outside of the SFRA as well.

[Fly Boomer]

11 hours ago, anthony.locurto said:

So I made an offer on a 1977 J and it was accepted, but I didn’t realize it had a firewall forward horsepower plus engine stc. Doing some digging it seems like these engines aren’t well liked. Does anyone have any experience with them? More concerned with reliability and the threat the plane becoming a money pit (more than what a plane usually is). 

Website apparently not touched since 2017.

[Pinecone]

I know they used to be THE place to go for a hotted up engine for aerobatic aircraft.  But think they are gone now.  Website not updated since 2017 does not bode well

 

[geoffb]

if that's the high-compression STC I recall something about ADs and manifold pressure limitations.  Google this site.