Switch Tanks Before Takeoff

[cliffy]

Just talked to my Ford buddy and he just last week changed a motor in a 2023 F 350

He said it took him 3 1/2 hrs each way for the cab/bed removal and install

He said the rig has to come off and be suspended above in order to change the motor.

I guess I'm "lucky" as I can't sit in the airplane longer than about 2+30 so running low on fuel is no 

problem for me. I ALWAYS have lot on landing. :-)

[McMooney]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

My Owners Manual is the same. On long trips, I fly an hour on each tank, then another 1:20 or so on the first tank before switching for the last time. I've gone 4:45 like that twice, both times topping off with 41-42 gallons (52 gal capacity).

Distance traveled is too dependent on winds aloft for meaningful discussion. One trip was 2:20 outbound and 4+ return, with groundspeed rarely above 105 knots and bottoming out at 68 knots . . . .

My Performance Tables show I should be good for 750-800 statute miles plus 45 minute reserves in no-wind conditions. But I fly by my watch, not by distance.

that's actually true, in my head i'm really thinking 1 hr + 2nd tank  which worse case is about 3.25 hours so approx 500 miles no wind.  it's actually further but i plan my fuel stop at a range of something around  3hours. 

flying a lot of LOP lately,  that second tank at altitude and leaned out can go for 3 hours by itself.  

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by McMooney

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

It was normal on older Ford cars (80s, 90s) to cut a hole in the floor under the back seat, fold up the metal, change the pump, fold the metal back, and then put sealing tape over the cuts. 

Seems like the designers focus increasingly on faster build, regardless of the effect on service.  More revenue for the service department, and less likely the owner can do the work himself.

[A64Pilot]

Why can’t you drop the tank?

I had to years ago on my Dakota, hardest thing was siphoning the fuel out, plastic tank, two straps, four bolts, unplug wire harness drag out and change the pump cartridge. Honestly maybe an hour?

Whats changed? What holds the tank now?

I know a Dakota isn’t a real truck, but my 01 C3500 Duramax looked to be the same, didn’t have to ever drop the tank but didn’t look to be a big deal.

[A64Pilot]

Buy a Diesel Pusher Motorhome. There is zero engine access. Looks like to change a belt you have to pull the charge air cooler, radiator etc and go in that way as a guess.

I guess your supposed to sell and buy new before it needs a belt?

[cliffy]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Why can’t you drop the tank?

Because it goes in from the top not the bottom.  Can't change the engine either without lifting the entire body off.

The software is getting locked up now so if you want a tuner to work on your car the ECM will brick

All the cars are/will be reporting to the mother ship as you drive in less than 5-6 years. You have no control over that. If you have a wifi installed you're connected Mother in just a couple of years. The newest proposal is built in drunk driver disable by cameras inside the car watching the driver also if he is sleepy. Thats only a couple years away

If your phone is connected to your car (hands free?) all your data on your phone is uploaded to the web and sent to Mother (Ford, etc) so they can sell the data. Includes email, texts, photos most everything.

Here's an article 

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/

 

Now back to switching tanks-    Its really a personal preference on how we do it as long as we don't run out of gas as many do every year. We are lucky with only 2 tanks to worry about for the most part. Juggling 4 or 6 tanks on other airplanes can be a problem.  Used to have 7 tanks on the 707 and a stabilizer tank  on the 747-400 giving it 8 tanks in total. 

Some Bonanzas have 6 tanks with the tip tanks. 

I'm not a big fan of running any tank to the limit and hearing it in the engine. I just think the sudden change in power output no matter how brief or small is not good overall for the motor and prop. JMO

I have run my O-360 the same way for over 2,000 hrs. WOT from takeoff until in the decent , 2500 RPM where the intake was designed to operate and I keep ROP of course because of the carb (tried a few times LOP using carb heat for better vaporization but it was not to successful), That's how to run a R-985  radial LOP with a carb- it works on that engine. I have had maybe 1 or 2 plugs foul doing it this way in over 20 years and I run massives out to about 700+ hrs before the center electrode gets to football shaped.  I clean and rotate the plugs every 100 hrs and check the resistance. I've found Tempest plugs do a lot better for me than the Champs. All my cruise is @9,000'. My burn is always 10 for the first hour, then 9 for each hour after  I've done 5+15 once with about 45 mins reserve left - all severe clear wx. Never again! Too long to sit now. 

Take a look at the pictures Champion uses for "worn out" and then look at 43.13  Quite a difference. Never had a problem with the 43.13 way on lots of different airplanes. 

[Fly Boomer]

19 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Here's an article 

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/

Were you referring to this article?

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/

[cliffy]

That was just one of the references I've seen over the last month or so,

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

Because it goes in from the top not the bottom.  Can't change the engine either without lifting the entire body off.

The software is getting locked up now so if you want a tuner to work on your car the ECM will brick

All the cars are/will be reporting to the mother ship as you drive in less than 5-6 years. You have no control over that. If you have a wifi installed you're connected Mother in just a couple of years. The newest proposal is built in drunk driver disable by cameras inside the car watching the driver also if he is sleepy. Thats only a couple years away

My new Ranger already has the drowsy driver detection, and it works pretty well.   It also connects to the factory for software updates and system monitoring.   It connects to the interwebz and I see can things like mileage, how much fuel is in it, tire pressures, oil change status, etc., from my phone.   I've also found it convenient to pay for 4G internet connectivity to it, so if I'm on the road I can connect my laptop, tablet, phone, etc., to broadband most of the time.   I've found this handy when offroading to update maps, etc., on the fly.   It's also nice when travelling to have a better connection than tethering through the phone.

Right to repair is still a battle that's being fought, and I suspect (at least hope) will ultimately be won by the consumer/user.   Much of this is unintended consequences of the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act).

There are some times when we should be glad that our airplanes are essentially stone age technology in comparison.   

[GeeBee]

You can thank my brother for "report to the mother ship" feature on Fords. 

 

[amillet]

On 12/9/2023 at 12:14 PM, MikeOH said:

I've been thinking about making my own...70 bucks is a little steep for my CB taste

A 5 gallon bucket upside down and a cool whip container fits perfectly under a J

[amillet]

Yikes. I think I’ll keep driving my 2003 Tundra

[dkkim73]

12 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Were you referring to this article?

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/

I spent a few years in and around the startup scene in the mid-latter 2010's. I recall a conversation I was invited to at a venture-incubator around mining data from medical equipment. More for failure prediction rather than bio-data. One of the sharper guys kept talking about all the "data exhaust" in the world and how to mine and monetize it. 

So that article talks a lot about using your personal data, probably in some way like grocery store discount programs. Cross-tie to other databases and build a marketing profile. 

I think the darker side has to do with "enforcement". Or really control. It would start as a discount and then become more punitive over time. The central blue/green bureaucrats will decide that you really don't need to drive that fast or far, after it's societally irresponsible and who are you to have such privilege? Esp. with your low social credit score. Deactivated. Throttled back. Good thing they aren't looking quite as hard at GA. 

Paranoid, sure, but maybe not enough. We have new tenants in a suburban homestead we worked on for years. It has great network infrastructure, but they are so excited to connect all sorts of appliances. E.g. the thermostat, so the utilities can turn it down for them. Networked everything. 

And with all the debanking and whatnot over the last couple years, who knows. London already has zones where you simply cannot drive certain vehicles. 

I am with the gent talking about his 2003 Tundra. That's about as much comms as I want the car's ECU to have. Sure, add 4G/5G and other RF, but under your own terms. 

Also, just wait until the first bad over-the-air firmware update borks a bunch of vehicles

 

[Fly Boomer]

21 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Also, just wait until the first bad over-the-air firmware update borks a bunch of vehicles

Hate to say it, but it's coming.

[Shadrach]

21 hours ago, cliffy said:

Just talked to my Ford buddy and he just last week changed a motor in a 2023 F 350

He said it took him 3 1/2 hrs each way for the cab/bed removal and install

He said the rig has to come off and be suspended above in order to change the motor.

I guess I'm "lucky" as I can't sit in the airplane longer than about 2+30 so running low on fuel is no 

problem for me. I ALWAYS have lot on landing. :-)

I don’t mind extended solo trips. I rarely subject passengers to more that 3hr legs. For trips over 500nm, I like to consolidate fuel. 

[cliffy]

This is what's good about GA One can go 5+ hours if he wants while others like me stop every 1 1/2 to 2  to walk around. You'll stop more often when you get a few more years on you and every day is Saturday!  :-)

 

AT a recent meeting of the World Economic Forum (WEF) the Chairman made a speech in which he said that they are looking forward to the day of all electronic money so that way they can control what money gets spent on. 

If they don't like what you want to buy the purchase won't go through.

Now think about how much actual real cash is used today. Look around say a Wally World and watch the transactions- how many times do the customers actually use cash compared to credit cards?

ALL of those CC transactions are mined for data bases somewhere. They are also "controlled" by the credit card company who can cut off the card at any time. By their own volition or?  Just thinking ahead. The possibility is there.  (YOU are also paying a premium to someone to use that CC instead of cash-your actual price for each item is actually higher than you realize, which you don't get back if you use cash-except for gas at some stations)

The younger population today (less than the 7 decades for me) has no recollection of the days before we even had credit cards. Everything was cash only or checks. Only checks had a trail to follow.

 

Airplanes talking to Mother? Its coming and in ways its already here. Can we all say ADSB?

Your flights are all tracked down to single digit accuracy and even blocking your ID from the public doesn't cancel the ability for some to know who you are in that mode. No guarantee of privacy in the airspace system. 

Do you have assets and are you going through a divorce?   :-) Stop and smell the roses

Now move to wifi connected cockpits in the future? Facial recognition in the pilot seat? Live data connection to someone on the ground? Low earth orbit wifi coverage so there are NO blank spots in coverage. Think about it. From the time you leave your driveway (car connected and tracked) to the time you get back home in your driveway, (airplane connected to the web live full time like the car) your every movement has been tracked and stored somewhere, accessible by someone at some time. 

NOW factor in AI into the equation!  BTW, AI data storage is and will be HUGE and require many time more electricity and water than it does now! Water you say? YES ! Water is used to cool the servers. Massive increases in data storage are being designed right now for AI. AI will change the world as much as aviation did at the turn of the last century. Some of it will be a benefit and some will be used as a determent to society as a whole.

It will enter the cockpit at some time. Then you won't have to worry about switching tanks- you'll just monitor the systems operating.  

[Schllc]

35 minutes ago, cliffy said:

This is what's good about GA One can go 5+ hours if he wants while others like me stop every 1 1/2 to 2  to walk around. You'll stop more often when you get a few more years on you and every day is Saturday!  :-)

 

AT a recent meeting of the World Economic Forum (WEF) the Chairman made a speech in which he said that they are looking forward to the day of all electronic money so that way they can control what money gets spent on. 

If they don't like what you want to buy the purchase won't go through.

Now think about how much actual real cash is used today. Look around say a Wally World and watch the transactions- how many times do the customers actually use cash compared to credit cards?

ALL of those CC transactions are mined for data bases somewhere. They are also "controlled" by the credit card company who can cut off the card at any time. By their own volition or?  Just thinking ahead. The possibility is there.  (YOU are also paying a premium to someone to use that CC instead of cash-your actual price for each item is actually higher than you realize, which you don't get back if you use cash-except for gas at some stations)

The younger population today (less than the 7 decades for me) has no recollection of the days before we even had credit cards. Everything was cash only or checks. Only checks had a trail to follow.

 

Airplanes talking to Mother? Its coming and in ways its already here. Can we all say ADSB?

Your flights are all tracked down to single digit accuracy and even blocking your ID from the public doesn't cancel the ability for some to know who you are in that mode. No guarantee of privacy in the airspace system. 

Do you have assets and are you going through a divorce?   :-) Stop and smell the roses

Now move to wifi connected cockpits in the future? Facial recognition in the pilot seat? Live data connection to someone on the ground? Low earth orbit wifi coverage so there are NO blank spots in coverage. Think about it. From the time you leave your driveway (car connected and tracked) to the time you get back home in your driveway, (airplane connected to the web live full time like the car) your every movement has been tracked and stored somewhere, accessible by someone at some time. 

NOW factor in AI into the equation!  BTW, AI data storage is and will be HUGE and require many time more electricity and water than it does now! Water you say? YES ! Water is used to cool the servers. Massive increases in data storage are being designed right now for AI. AI will change the world as much as aviation did at the turn of the last century. Some of it will be a benefit and some will be used as a determent to society as a whole.

It will enter the cockpit at some time. Then you won't have to worry about switching tanks- you'll just monitor the systems operating.  

Lots of people like to suggest this is tin foil hat stuff, they say I don’t have anything to hide so why do I care. 
they couldn’t be more wrong on either count. 
while I don’t believe either party has nefarious evil intentions, they both move us inexorably towards complete control under the guise of our benefit, and there are improvements but the cost is not cheap nor reversible…

that old song by Rush, “Red Barchetta” is pretty prescient…

I am glad I won’t live to see this future, and I am sad for my kids and grandkids that won’t enjoy the freedom and anonymity we did…

[cliffy]

Our country was founded on anonymity in the face of government

Government always has a slow creep toward control It NEVER contracts!

This is just what the founding fathers were concerned about

One only has to look at the progression from the old TCAs to the now ubiquitous Class B airspace.

TCAs (for those who remember them) were sold on the word of not expanding  and taking up too much airspace- HMMM

Where will it wind up with all the new electronics coming to the forefront?

There is no turning back to the days of yore.

Switching fuel tanks is microscopic in comparison 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

Our country was founded on anonymity in the face of government

Government always has a slow creep toward control It NEVER contracts!

This is just what the founding fathers were concerned about

My favorite example is the pledge of allegiance.    Many of the founding fathers expressed disdain for pledges or loyalty oaths to the government, and thought they were antithetical to self-rule.

Now you're considered unpatriotic if you don't do it.

Slippery slope indeed! 

[dkkim73]

4 hours ago, Schllc said:

that old song by Rush, “Red Barchetta” is pretty prescient…

I am glad I won’t live to see this future, and I am sad for my kids and grandkids that won’t enjoy the freedom and anonymity we did…

That is a great song. I only hope there are crevices where some freedom and creativity can survive. I kind of think that song and The Hunger Games are an optimistic take, some days. Vs. architectures of total ambient control. 

Funny, I was in a nice deli thinking about all the anti-meat messaging out there and found myself humming about "a brilliant pink porchetta from a better vanished time..." (Rush nerds FTW). 

DK

[Hank]

Yeah, the UN wants Americans to reduce our meat consumption to 2-3 meals per week.

I prefer 2 meals per day; when I have time, it's three meals per day. And I'm about to retire, which will give me more time.

[MikeOH]

7 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yeah, the UN wants Americans to reduce our meat consumption to 2-3 meals per week.

I prefer 2 meals per day; when I have time, it's three meals per day. And I'm about to retire, which will give me more time.

As long as evolution doesn't take away our incisors,...I'm eating MEAT!

[Fly Boomer]

10 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

As long as evolution doesn't take away our incisors,...I'm eating MEAT!

More likely, age will take them away.

[wombat]

On the original topic:   Changing tanks.

I think it's useful to understand what risks you are mitigating by doing so at times other than when one tank is about to run out or when you want to balance the weight of the aircraft, and also what risks you are increasing by doing so.

 

As someone pointed out earlier, there are a few reasons to test it on the ground:

1. Make sure that you are drawing fuel into your engine instead of something else (e.g. water)
2. Make sure that the valve is not stuck and will not get stuck in a position that does not allow fuel to flow to the engine when you try to switch tanks.
3. To comply with operating instructions.

If you have not added fuel to the aircraft since landing and it has been sitting in a private and locked hangar for a single night and during the previous flight you used both tanks, the probability of #1 is low.

If you are the last pilot to fly it and it worked in the last flight, the probability of #2 is low.

That being said:

1. What I do every time is what I'll do *this* time too.   So  if I don't switch tanks while on the ground normally, I probably won't do it when I left the plane outside for a week and there was heavy rainfall.  So I should do it every time.
2. If the valve does stop working, it will stop working at some point where it worked the time before, but will not work now, and I'd prefer that to happen in the ground.  Switching on the ground doesn't mean it can't fail in flight, but the chances are a little lower.
3. It's possible that when I switch it this time, I might cause a failure where it starts leaking fuel at a rate bad enough that I  exhaust my fuel before I reach my destination.  This could happen in a mid-air fuel tank switch too.

Overall, I think the benefits outweigh the risks and I switch fuel tanks before takeoff for the first flight every day.  On my checklist it's shortly before the runup.    If I've just dropped someone off or something I won't do a full Before Takeoff check through and don't switch tanks.

[T. Peterson]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:20 PM, EricJ said:

My favorite example is the pledge of allegiance.    Many of the founding fathers expressed disdain for pledges or loyalty oaths to the government, and thought they were antithetical to self-rule.

Now you're considered unpatriotic if you don't do it.

Slippery slope indeed! 

Maybe that’s why our oaths are to the Constitution and not to the Government?