New Panel for my Bravo--now a 21st century airplane

[ZamF16]

I finally took the plunge and upgraded my panel.  It all started with a failing KFC-150 and the desire to upgrade to a GFC 500.  This of course drove replacing the attitude indicator and HSI.  And for a "little more," I could go to a G3X 10" panel.  So...I went with a nearly naked panel with the G3X touch, a G5 backup, GFC 500, but kept my GNS 530W and 430 navigators.  Attached are my before and after pixs.  I am now flying as much as I can to build new IFR habits around the new avionics.   

Edited November 16, 2023 by ZamF16
errors

[Boilermonkey]

Nice!

[ZamF16]

Oh, and my Bravo is now 50 pounds lighter with a slightly more forward CG.  It was amazing how much weight was tied up in the wiring for the analog instruments and autopilot.  

[LANCECASPER]

17 hours ago, ZamF16 said:

Oh, and my Bravo is now 50 pounds lighter with a slightly more forward CG.  It was amazing how much weight was tied up in the wiring for the analog instruments and autopilot.  

Beautiful job! 

Yours is an early M20M and probably still has the vacuum speed brakes, but getting rid of one vacuum pump (especially the engine driven/clutch backup) helps with the weight reduction and makes it easier to work on the airplane.

[ArtVandelay]

The bottom GPS screen looks like it’s seen better days, might want to start saving for the next upgrade. ;-)

[ZamF16]

13 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Beautiful job! 

Yours is an early M20M and probably still has the vacuum speed brakes, but getting rid of one vacuum pump (especially the engine driven/clutch backup) helps with the weight reduction and makes it easier to work on the airplane.

Yes, I still have the vacuum driven speed brakes.  So I still have my vacuum system just to drive those.  We were concerned that without the demand of the instruments, the vacuum pressure might be too high, but there are no issues so far.  At some point I would love to move to the electric speed brakes, but unfortunately you cannot drop them into the same hole as the vacuum speed brakes.  

[ZamF16]

12 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

The bottom GPS screen looks like it’s seen better days, might want to start saving for the next upgrade. ;-)

Yes, the 430 screen crazed over the summer.  However, it is surprising still fairly easy to read.  Since it is a non-WAAS unit, Garmin won't even service it anymore.  The next upgrade will be to a GTN, but that was more than my budget would allow right now.  

[EricJ]

42 minutes ago, ZamF16 said:

Yes, I still have the vacuum driven speed brakes.  So I still have my vacuum system just to drive those.  We were concerned that without the demand of the instruments, the vacuum pressure might be too high, but there are no issues so far.  At some point I would love to move to the electric speed brakes, but unfortunately you cannot drop them into the same hole as the vacuum speed brakes.  

If the vacuum manifold was retained it acts like a regulator and can be adjusted if needed.

Also, you'll have the option to replace the GNS units with Avidyne IFDs as slide-in replacements.    Apparently that's getting really popular right now as the GNS units start reaching end of support.

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

If the vacuum manifold was retained it acts like a regulator and can be adjusted if needed.

Also, you'll have the option to replace the GNS units with Avidyne IFDs as slide-in replacements.    Apparently that's getting really popular right now as the GNS units start reaching end of support.

I’ve wondered about that.  My 430W is tied into my G500 pretty heavily.  Would the avidyne play nice?

[ArtVandelay]

I’ve wondered about that.  My 430W is tied into my G500 pretty heavily.  Would the avidyne play nice?

A GTN/GFC500 combination would give you VNAV, smart glide and possibly more functionality.
And if you have a problem, who you going to call, Garmin will say it’s not their problem, it’s Avidynes, and they will say it’s Garmin.

[ragedracer1977]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

A GTN/GFC500 combination would give you VNAV, smart glide and possibly more functionality.
And if you have a problem, who you going to call, Garmin will say it’s not their problem, it’s Avidynes, and they will say it’s Garmin.

A g500 is an MFD/PFD, not an autopilot

[ZamF16]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

If the vacuum manifold was retained it acts like a regulator and can be adjusted if needed.

Also, you'll have the option to replace the GNS units with Avidyne IFDs as slide-in replacements.    Apparently that's getting really popular right now as the GNS units start reaching end of support.

 

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

A GTN/GFC500 combination would give you VNAV, smart glide and possibly more functionality.
And if you have a problem, who you going to call, Garmin will say it’s not their problem, it’s Avidynes, and they will say it’s Garmin.

Yes, smart glide and VNAV would be nice to have.  It would also integrate my comm 1/2 into the G3X which I currently cannot do with my GNS.  I was looking at the GTN750Xi when my budget allows.  The debate is do I continue to go with two navigators (I love redundancy) or go with 1 and just a panel radio for comm 2.  The latter seems to be a common configuration I am seeing.  

At least my current config allows flight plan info to back feed from my iPad (Garmin Pilot) to the G3X and then into the GNS.  So while not my dream setup, it still has most of the functions I need/desire.  

[LANCECASPER]

10 hours ago, ZamF16 said:

Yes, I still have the vacuum driven speed brakes.  So I still have my vacuum system just to drive those.  We were concerned that without the demand of the instruments, the vacuum pressure might be too high, but there are no issues so far.  At some point I would love to move to the electric speed brakes, but unfortunately you cannot drop them into the same hole as the vacuum speed brakes.  

I see that yours is serial number 17. One of the M20Ms that I owned was serial #7. I had no problems with the vacuum speed brakes. Keeping the worm drive on the brakes greased every year with only Aeroshell 22 and keeping the boots on the vacuum diaphragms treated to keep them soft and pliable will help to keep them working for years to come.

[ArtVandelay]

Yes, smart glide and VNAV would be nice to have.  It would also integrate my comm 1/2 into the G3X which I currently cannot do with my GNS.  I was looking at the GTN750Xi when my budget allows.  The debate is do I continue to go with two navigators (I love redundancy) or go with 1 and just a panel radio for comm 2.  The latter seems to be a common configuration I am seeing.  
At least my current config allows flight plan info to back feed from my iPad (Garmin Pilot) to the G3X and then into the GNS.  So while not my dream setup, it still has most of the functions I need/desire.  

I have a 255 nav/com for redundancy, unless you’re a VFR only pilot I would recommend a 2nd nav, it’s not much more expensive than just a com. Certain models come with expectations, I think a Bravo Mooney is expected to have redundant IFR capabilities.

[EricJ]

10 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I’ve wondered about that.  My 430W is tied into my G500 pretty heavily.  Would the avidyne play nice?

They're pin and function compatible, so the G500 shouldn't know the difference.    I've not heard of anyone having integration problems after a slide-in replacement.
 

[ragedracer1977]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

They're pin and function compatible, so the G500 shouldn't know the difference.    I've not heard of anyone having integration problems after a slide-in replacement.
 

Good to know.  You might know this, but I’m not sure so just want to run it by. The 430 feeds GPS and nav data to the G500 over arinc but it also has a gi106 indicator that is fed via a separate analog harness from the 430.  The STC requires it be done this way.  The 440 would still run that properly?

[dzeleski]

6 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Good to know.  You might know this, but I’m not sure so just want to run it by. The 430 feeds GPS and nav data to the G500 over arinc but it also has a gi106 indicator that is fed via a separate analog harness from the 430.  The STC requires it be done this way.  The 440 would still run that properly?

The only thing missing on the IFD 440 swap would be VNAV when paired with a GFC. In all honestly I dont find im missing it. I have had zero issues in 3 years and 300 hours on my Dual G5, GFC 500, IFD 440 install, minus the servo recall and the software AD for the GFC. Everything else works perfectly fine as the 440 is feature compatible with a 430, so if it works with a 430 it works with the 440.

I was very concerned with over upgrading a 1977 J and decided a slide in replacement for my 430 was the better more cost efficient route. I dont regret that decision at all and actually much prefer the avidyne workflow over garmins.

[EricJ]

13 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Good to know.  You might know this, but I’m not sure so just want to run it by. The 430 feeds GPS and nav data to the G500 over arinc but it also has a gi106 indicator that is fed via a separate analog harness from the 430.  The STC requires it be done this way.  The 440 would still run that properly?

It should.   They're pin and function compatible with a 430, so should drive and do everything it does.   All the pins match 1:1.   The main difference would be a non-WAAS 430 would need some additional wiring to get WAAS compatibility, but it's the same as adding WAAS to a non-WAAS 430 cage.

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I see that yours is serial number 17. One of the M20Ms that I owned was serial #7. I had no problems with the vacuum speed brakes. Keeping the worm drive on the brakes greased every year with only Aeroshell 22 and keeping the boots on the vacuum diaphragms treated to keep them soft and pliable will help to keep them working for years to come.

What did you use to treat the boots?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

What did you use to treat the boots?

If I remember correctly I used to get it through Aircraft Spruce and it was just called Rubber Dressing.

I use this on my tires now and it work probably help protect: https://www.amazon.com/Dressing-Protectant-Attracting-Conditioner-Automotive/dp/B07CRNKGQB/ref=asc_df_B07CRNKGQB/?tag=&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312176482001&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1973661435121635196&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9028241&hvtargid=pla-566726416686&mcid=1a29fc627a12359c92a7eb00b4e6397f&ref=&adgrpid=68995954464&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3uGqBhDdARIsAFeJ5r044Raqfv9AbMh-muU_ByEdprmtEPPVI9LVFMfa0ela9UJR-PIP3zcaAm7dEALw_wcB&th=1

[ZamF16]

I didn't have much previous time with these new panels.  However, I flew to Denver and back to San Antonio last week for Thanksgiving, so I got almost 8 hours with the new system (yes, head winds both ways).  It is amazing how much information is packed into the G3X with its integration with the navigators, GFC500, and GTX345.  I found I never referenced the GNS530W anymore accept to make updates to the flight plan and procedures.  All my info was on the G3X in much higher resolution.  I was told this would likely be the case, which is why I had the GFC500 control head mounted above the GNS 530/430 for easier access.  I spent 90 % of my time on the G3X and the GFC500 control head.  Loving every aspect of the new system.  I wish I hadn't waited so long to upgrade.  

[affricate]

On 11/17/2023 at 6:35 AM, LANCECASPER said:

Beautiful job! 

Yours is an early M20M and probably still has the vacuum speed brakes, but getting rid of one vacuum pump (especially the engine driven/clutch backup) helps with the weight reduction and makes it easier to work on the airplane.

Yes! Especially when removing the scavenge pump 

[Tx_Aggie]

Funny how these things happen. My century 41 started to poop out this past year. With century going out of business and the outlook for parts for the next 10+ years only getting worse I decided also to take the hit and replace with Garmin gfc500. I considered the G3x path but just couldn’t get there with the budget. There’s a lot of “while you’re in there” paths you can take! Mines currently at Don Maxwell’s getting the hook up now. Looking forward to the new functionality. 

[Jetpilot86]

Nice panel!

I put in an IFD 440/540 combo to talk to my G600 PFD/ND.  The only issue I had was that there was a data speed mismatch between the G600 and the IFD's.  The 430/530 didn't care about the settings not matching, but it took a few days to sort it out.  IFD did the sorting.  Bonus is that my IFD/KFC 150 combo will shoot LPV's in addition to ILS's, for a lot less than the Garmin equivalents.  I was able to sell off my Garmin 430w/530w combo to finance about 40% of the Factory Reman IFD's.

I'm also at Maxwell's right now getting an Annual and a GTX345 upgrade installed, as well as the GAD43e installed so that my G600 will run all of the functions of the KFC150, may she live long and prosper! 

Next up will be paint, then a diet.  Looking at how I want to replace the King AI, A/S, Altimeter.  A G5 for the backup will allow me to dump the rest of the OEM 6 pack, both vacuum pumps, and other odds and ends.

[NickG]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:34 AM, LANCECASPER said:

I see that yours is serial number 17. One of the M20Ms that I owned was serial #7. I had no problems with the vacuum speed brakes. Keeping the worm drive on the brakes greased every year with only Aeroshell 22 and keeping the boots on the vacuum diaphragms treated to keep them soft and pliable will help to keep them working for years to come.

What was the serial number when they went to electric speed brakes?