Seat on M20J not securing

[skykrawler]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:59 PM, Echo said:

Jesus people!  If your seats are broken…FIX THEM!  

And don't forget you're are exposing your passengers to the risks.

 

[Beard]

I started this thread looking for advice. I too am surprised that the checking for cracked seat supports is not an AD, etc. I suppose it will take a death for it to be mandated. My seat did not slide back during take off, but rather in turbulent air. I immediately swapped seats and the problem was gone for me. My passengers then complained because it was constantly sliding back. I am very pleased that I have now located the issue and the repaired part will be put into the passenger seat tomorrow and then reinstalled in the Mooney.

I thank everyone for their input as it allowed me to focus right to the problem.

[flyboy0681]

On 10/14/2023 at 2:14 PM, Tim-37419 said:

I went to the hangar this morning, excited that all I needed to do was bend something but found a crack instead... two photo's below, one of the crack and another of the pilot side seat that looks like it may have been repaired or re-enforced.  

Had the identical problem. Lasar works with a welder that specializes in the repair. Total turnaround time was about ten days. The only problem was inserting the plastic sleeves (supplied) into the structure because there is simply little clearance. It took my partner and me over an hour to get just one inserted, without destroying it in the process.

 

 

[Igor_U]

17 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

That's been my habit since I flew Cessnas.

A couple of yers ago I had the seat slide back on acceleration and was glad I had my hand on the throttle. Even though the rudder trim was full right, the airplane was still was veering to the right, without me being able to reach the right rudder. I pulled the throttle back and got things back under control. Thankfully I was on an 80 foot wide runway. I pulled off on the taxiway collected my thoughts and taxied back for take-off, starting my checklist all over, and took off again after I had confirmed twice that my seat was secure.

In this case it worked, but like I mentioned it wouldn't solve every situation if this happens.

I always confirm by pushing hard aft that seat is fully locked and insist passengers, especially new ones do the same.

However, I don't think it would be a big of a problem for myself in my M20F. I'm just short of 6'4" and for takeoff (and landing) I have a seat at the last hole on the rails. Normally, in flight I slide the seat aft to rest on the aft safety pin (cotter-pin in my plane) and I have still a reach to the rudder pedals. Difference in seat location is probably few inches. I can see for shorter person, that would be more pronounce slide aft from seat positioned further forward and would create a significant problem. I suspect long body Mooney has longer rails and this might be different. 

 

17 hours ago, kortopates said:

I am not so sure about that. If it’s going to slip back it’s much more likely to occur after rotation and is pretty unpredictable. A short field takeoff requires right about 12 degrees pitch up and climbing steeply out is not the time i’d want to risk the throttle going back to idle.
Best to let go if it ever happens IMO. It did happen to me once in climb before i changed out all 4 seat rails; luckily i just let it go.
 

It looks that 4 rail replacement is quite involved in the Mooney and two people working are needed. Would you care to share how much labor is needed? 

 

Regards,

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Igor_U said:

I always confirm by pushing hard aft that seat is fully locked and insist passengers, especially new ones do the same.

However, I don't think it would be a big of a problem for myself in my M20F. I'm just short of 6'4" and for takeoff (and landing) I have a seat at the last hole on the rails. Normally, in flight I slide the seat aft to rest on the aft safety pin (cotter-pin in my plane) and I have still a reach to the rudder pedals. Difference in seat location is probably few inches. I can see for shorter person, that would be more pronounce slide aft from seat positioned further forward and would create a significant problem. I suspect long body Mooney has longer rails and this might be different. 

 

It looks that 4 rail replacement is quite involved in the Mooney and two people working are needed. Would you care to share how much labor is needed? 

 

Regards,

You are correct, its a 2 person job to buck the rivets and took me quite awhile. But the factory pre-drilled rails really help.  This was a number of years ago now and I can't recall how many hours but with the eelctric gear there was about 4 or 6 rivets in the front  I couldn't get too with a bucking bar that I was able to get approval from the factory to replace with Cherry rivets. With a manual gear I think it will be much easier, but still a big job and had to remove a lot of external skin rivets on each outer edge to get access to the rails rivets underneath - just dropping the belly pan doesn't provide enough access.

Edited October 17, 2023 by kortopates

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

Lasar works with a welder that specializes in the repair.

How long has it been since you used the services of Lasar?

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

How long has it been since you used the services of Lasar?

According to the date in the pictures, July 2021.

[1980Mooney]

23 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

How long has it been since you used the services of Lasar?

 

22 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

According to the date in the pictures, July 2021.

Lasar moved from Lakeport, CA to Prineville, OR in May 2022.  They lost decades of experience and relationships in the move (and parts inventory too). On Facebook they are promoting services for other aircraft brands.  Looks like they are chasing Cirrus work - it only makes sense to go after growing markets since Mooney is a finite and shrinking one.  This has to result in a dilution of Mooney focus and expertise.

Someone needs to provide a PIREP on their current state of Mooney capability and offerings.

 

[flyboy0681]

2 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Lasar moved from Lakeport, CA to Prineville, OR in May 2022.  They lost decades of experience and relationships in the move (and parts inventory too).

 

Excellent point.

[Fly Boomer]

46 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Lasar moved from Lakeport, CA to Prineville, OR in May 2022.  They lost decades of experience and relationships in the move (and parts inventory too). On Facebook they are promoting services for other aircraft brands.  Looks like they are chasing Cirrus work - it only makes sense to go after growing markets since Mooney is a finite and shrinking one.  This has to result in a dilution of Mooney focus and expertise.

Someone needs to provide a PIREP on their current state of Mooney capability and offerings.

 

Yep.  My point was that most all these posts about the excellent parts and service from Lasar are just a glimpse from the past.

[kortopates]

Yep.  My point was that most all these posts about the excellent parts and service from Lasar are just a glimpse from the past.

True when it comes to making parts and their service support. But the one thing that hasn’t changed is their parts manager Dan, with his wealth of Mooney parts sourcing knowledge and access to the factory inventory. He and his parts inventory remains in CA.
I do think their parts surcharge pricing has gone up though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, kortopates said:

True when it comes to making parts and their service support. But the one thing that hasn’t changed is their parts manager Dan, with his wealth of Mooney parts sourcing knowledge and access to the factory inventory. He and his parts inventory remains in CA.
I do think their parts surcharge pricing has gone up though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting.  I have not used Dan for sourcing parts, but it's good to hear that he remains such a valuable asset to the community.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Lasar moved from Lakeport, CA to Prineville, OR in May 2022.  They lost decades of experience and relationships in the move (and parts inventory too).

They also lost their PMA, which was attached to the old address and facility, so they can no longer make many parts that people counted on them for.    They're supposedly re-applying for it, but who knows how long or whether that'll happen.    I wonder if the new owner knew that'd happen and moved anyway or didn't research it or something.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

They also lost their PMA, which was attached to the old address and facility, so they can no longer make many parts that people counted on them for.    They're supposedly re-applying for it, but who knows how long or whether that'll happen.    I wonder if the new owner knew that'd happen and moved anyway or didn't research it or something.

When a business knows that they are one of the few remaining options for owners, they can be a lot more careless or intentional about these kind of business disruptions.  There is less urgency because customer delay/ire is less likely to result in a loss of long term business.  Look at the delay issues with Lycoming and Continental supply.

[Tim-37419]

Fixed, well more like repaired but not yet installed. The shop also rewelded (don't bash me if that's not the right term) the opposite side. They also provided an 8130. Turn around time was 1.5 weeks.

 

Before and after below:

 

 

[Tim-37419]

Seat is installed and no longer jumps out of the locked position when it's cranked up high. Like somebody said previously the seat is a little trickier to get back together than it seems. I thought it would be a 10 minute job was probably closer to an hour. There are these Teflon sleeves that are a little tricky to get in, don't forget the WD-40. You also have to be careful about where all the washers go

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, Tim-37419 said:

Seat is installed and no longer jumps out of the locked position when it's cranked up high. Like somebody said previously the seat is a little trickier to get back together than it seems. I thought it would be a 10 minute job was probably closer to an hour. They are these Teflon sleeves that are a little tricky to get in, don't forget the WD-40. You also have to be careful about where all the washers go

Yup, exactly what it took me and my partner to get the two sleeves in, a little over an hour. In the middle of a Florida summer mind you.

[A64Pilot]

Ref the Cessna seat vs Mooney causing crashes.

I wondered the same thing and even posted here why don’t we have an AD too, to get a lot of let’s say passionate reply’s.

I think maybe after giving it a lot of thought and this is coming from my previous C-210 it’s that a Cessna seat moves a few ft, the 210 you had to slide the seat WAY back to get out the door. A Mooney’s seat just can’t move that far. I’m 5’ 10” and with my seat positioned for flight in the 210 the front edge of the seat was in front of the door front edge. You slid fwd to let the back seat Pax out, then way back for you to get out.

Just a guess actually.

My 210 had a lock very similar to a shoulder harness inertia reel attached to the seat by a strap with the reel floor mounted, when you pulled up on the release bar for the seat, it unlocked the reel, so even if the seat lock pins and or rails failed completely, the seat wouldn’t move aft unless the adjustment bar was raised.

Completely solved the problem in my opinion, always wondered why all Cessna’s weren’t fitted with it.

[1980Mooney]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:57 AM, A64Pilot said:

Ref the Cessna seat vs Mooney causing crashes.

I wondered the same thing and even posted here why don’t we have an AD too, to get a lot of let’s say passionate reply’s.

I think maybe after giving it a lot of thought and this is coming from my previous C-210 it’s that a Cessna seat moves a few ft, the 210 you had to slide the seat WAY back to get out the door. A Mooney’s seat just can’t move that far. I’m 5’ 10” and with my seat positioned for flight in the 210 the front edge of the seat was in front of the door front edge. You slid fwd to let the back seat Pax out, then way back for you to get out.

Just a guess actually.

Also with the Mooney, you have the center steel tube ( of the windshield/fuselage frame )  exposed.  It is easy to lean forward and grab, even with the seat all the way back or with the nose pitched up, in order to stabilize yourself or to pull the seat forward.  In a Cessna, in the event of an unexpected seat slide back during take off (and nose pitch up), the only thing to grab and pull on is the yoke.  The outcome is deadly.