ELT Battery (am I getting ripped off?)

[TigerMooney]

My Kannad af compact ELT battery was due for replacement - and of course it has to be sent in to be replaced (the IA can’t just do it in the shop). 
 

So here’s the shocker… I get a quote back from the facility stating that additional work needs to be done in addition to the battery(!) and the stand-by current is “too high”. 

 

Of course he told me that the battery I sent in wasn’t dead…but that doesn’t mean the new one will last. 

He said there’s no way he would “certify” it. 
 

My question is does he need to “certify” it? Or is this the same circumstance of a “mandatory” service bulletin on a prop saying it has to be overhauled every 6 years…when in fact, that SB isn’t regulatory at all.

Edited September 12, 2023 by TigerMooney

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, TigerMooney said:

So here’s the shocker… I get a quote back from the facility stating that additional work needs to be done in addition to the battery(!) and the stand-by current is “too high”. 

What additional work is he proposing?

[A64Pilot]

You have to have an ELT, Congress mandated it, not the FAA.

Unless it’s a 406 mhz, it’s useless, no-one even monitors the things anymore and haven’t since 2009, yet you have to have one, Congress says so.

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/aircraft/aircraft-operations/emergency-locator-transmitters

If it were me, I wouldn’t put 5c in a 121.5 ELT.

If it’s a 406 ELT, you might want to get a repair quote and then compare it to the price of new, sometimes new is about the same price, OK maybe not sometimes, pretty often actually.

I know there was at least one brand of the old type that used user replaceable D cell alkaline flashlight batteries, there may be new 406 ones that do. If so they are painless, every five years open it up and replace the batteries with new quality D cell alkaline batteries, change the due date, run the self test. I think they can self test anyway.

Oh, the 406 ones work, really work. the 121.5 ones went “beep” there was no data, just beep. A good 406 tells them the tail number and exact location, with the tail number they look you up in their file and call the contact number you have on file, if someone answers and says he’s out flying they launch rescue, if you answer they tell you your ELT is going off and most likely you call the Avionics shop and tell them they set it off, don’t know why or how but they often do.

On edit I think there are two types of 406, one type has a built in GPS and it transmits an exact location, the one without a GPS has to be triangulated by the satellite which may take a few passes, each pass gets the location more precise but it takes awhile, whike the one with the built in GPS of course very quickly transmits your exact location, at least that’s the way it used to be, maybe they all have a GPS now, I would expect that myself as they are easy and cheap

 

[wombat]

I wouldn't call the 121.5 ELT worthless; as far as I can tell, nearly every airline monitors 121.5 almost all the time.   When I have the capability, I do as well.    Sure, it's very primitive compared to the 406MHz ELT with it's data transmission, but it's better than nothing.

 

I'm pretty surprised that you'd need to send the whole ELT in to get the battery replaced.  That's super weird.

[EricJ]

14 minutes ago, wombat said:

I wouldn't call the 121.5 ELT worthless; as far as I can tell, nearly every airline monitors 121.5 almost all the time.   When I have the capability, I do as well.    Sure, it's very primitive compared to the 406MHz ELT with it's data transmission, but it's better than nothing.

 

I'm pretty surprised that you'd need to send the whole ELT in to get the battery replaced.  That's super weird.

121.5 is still used, and even for a 406 MHz detection and search the 121.5 signal is sometimes used for pinpointing the source.     I monitor 121.5 and I've called in three ELTs that I've heard in the last year.    One was obviously coming from airport, but the other two obviously not at airports. 

The majority of 121.5 and 406 detections are still false alarms, but they are tracked if detected and an effort made to locate or turn them off.    Our local aviation junkyard is a frequent source of 121.5 signals.

[PT20J]

I think it's a good idea to look at the battery replacement cost when considering an ELT purchase. My ACK E-04 has a field replaceable battery and does a lot internal error checking so it does not need recertification. It also connects to my GPS so that it will send out the last received position when activated.

As @A64Pilot noted, the original ACK 121.5 ELT used Duracell batteries. The company founder discovered that the ONLY FAA requirement for an ELT battery was that it be labelled with an expiration date by the manufacturer and, as a marketing gimmick, Duracell had always put an expiration date on their alkaline batteries. So, he was able to market an ELT that was less expensive than competitors because the batteries were cheap. Alas, the 406 ELT needs a much heftier battery and the days of cheap ELT batteries are long gone.

Skip

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Our local aviation junkyard is a frequent source of 121.5 signals.

If your junkyards look like the ones I'm familiar with, those signals must be a nightmare to track down.

[EricJ]

Just now, Fly Boomer said:

If your junkyards look like the ones I'm familiar with, those signals must be a nightmare to track down.

Our local CAP squadron has a ground search team that tracks them down.   My fave story from them is that they were tracking one near downtown Phoenix, not too far from where the aviation junkyard is, but it kept moving.    Every time they thought they had it, it went somewhere else.    They finally tracked it down to a homeless guy that had it in his shopping cart and they had to buy it from him for $20.   Evidently he dug it out of the dumpster at the junkyard.

They've been located in dumpsters at a number of different places, including at Pinal County airport where the airliners go to die.

[Fly Boomer]

Just now, EricJ said:

Our local CAP squadron has a ground search team that tracks them down.   My fave story from them is that they were tracking one near downtown Phoenix, not too far from where the aviation junkyard is, but it kept moving.    Every time they thought they had it, it went somewhere else.    They finally tracked it down to a homeless guy that had it in his shopping cart and they had to buy it from him for $20.   Evidently he dug it out of the dumpster at the junkyard.

They've been located in dumpsters at a number of different places, including at Pinal County airport where the airliners go to die.

Great story.

[Pinecone]

FYI, the ELT does not transmit your tail number.  It transmits a code that identifies the ELT.  That is looked up in the database to find out the tail number and owner and phone number.

If you buy an airplane, one thing you REALLY need to do is to go online and switch the ELT info to YOU.

406 ELTs either have an internal GPS or it can be connected to your panel GPS.   With these, the ELT sends out you actual location.  One consideration is if you are going to crash, activate the ELT in the air, so that it sends out a couple of clear transmission with position.   The crash could disconnect the GPS connection or the ELT from the antenna, limiting the output.

And FYI, the AIM HIGHLY recommends (it used to require) monitoring 121.5 on your second com if you have one. 

[EricJ]

42 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

406 ELTs either have an internal GPS or it can be connected to your panel GPS.   With these, the ELT sends out you actual location.  One consideration is if you are going to crash, activate the ELT in the air, so that it sends out a couple of clear transmission with position.   The crash could disconnect the GPS connection or the ELT from the antenna, limiting the output.

From what I can tell most of them will transmit the last known GPS coordinate, so even if the GPS fails just before or during the crash, the ELT uses the last known location for subsequent transmissions (which it does roughly every 50 seconds after activation).    For this reason the 121.5 signal is still useful, since the coordinates transmitted on the 406 signal may not be entirely accurate and the continuous 121.5 signal can be used to more precisely locate the crash if it isn't evident at the indicated GPS coordinates.

I agree that if one has the presence of mind to activate it just before a crash it's not a bad idea, but I'd suspect that'd be pretty low on a priority list in most cases.

[Pinecone]

Fuel, ignition, door, ELT. 

[Aerodon]

10 hours ago, TigerMooney said:

My Kannad af compact ELT battery was due for replacement - and of course it has to be sent in to be replaced (the IA can’t just do it in the shop). 
 

So here’s the shocker… I get a quote back from the facility stating that additional work needs to be done in addition to the battery(!) and the stand-by current is “too high”. 

 

I have multiple yellow bricks on the shelf and will never buy a Kannad again.  Ever.  All of them draw more than the minimum standby current, and the service centre I spoke with says it is because they have been tested without an antenna. 

They say they know the problem, know what to fix, won't guarantee it won't happen again.  And the cost of the repair and a battery will add up to more than you can get a pretty decent unit from the green brick supplier.

If I'm wrong, and you can come up with a workable repair solution, let me know.

 

Aerodon

 

 

[GeeBee]

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadBAT200.php
 

I have run into this myself and here is my answer. If it required the authorized Kanaad facility to replace it, why does Soruce sell the kit to the public at large? In Canada, yes it has to be sent to Kanaad because the recertification requires an actual 406 emission test. Kanaad lumps the US and Canada together in their service documentation. It is indeed the Hartzell AD thing all over. There is no requirement to “re-certify” your unit, only the requirement to replace the battery, and your IA can do that, he just cannot do the 406 emitter test.

[A64Pilot]

11 hours ago, GeeBee said:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/kannadBAT200.php
 

I have run into this myself and here is my answer. If it required the authorized Kanaad facility to replace it, why does Soruce sell the kit to the public at large? In Canada, yes it has to be sent to Kanaad because the recertification requires an actual 406 emission test. Kanaad lumps the US and Canada together in their service documentation. It is indeed the Hartzell AD thing all over. There is no requirement to “re-certify” your unit, only the requirement to replace the battery, and your IA can do that, he just cannot do the 406 emitter test.

Many kits are sold that an A&P can’t legally use, even the simple compass fluid and gasket kits. An A&P can’t repair an instrument and a compass is an instrument, just one example, whenever I installed a very sophisticated GPS for navigating for spraying I had to put a decal beside it that said it wasn’t to be used for navigation, now I ask you what else could it be used for, entertainment? FAR’s were meant well but can’t cover every possible situation, the GPS statement for instance clearly was meant for IFR, but by leaving those three letters out the required statement is nonsensical.

Just because you fly around and listen to 121.5 doesn’t mean anything, all you can do is call Center or whoever your talking to and tell them your hearing an ELT, they will ask others if they are hearing it, if it’s real (it almost never is and because of that it’s usually not taken seriously) maybe in a day or two they will find you, but likely not.

The BIG deal is the Rescue Co-ordination Center with its satellites is no longer listening, the satellites could triangulate the signal and get a rough location that teams could search, but they don’t anymore. So the Pro’s if you will they guys who’s sole purpose is rescue coordination no longer even listen for 121.5 hits.

However they DO listen for 406 and even without a GPS location the Sarsat can triangulate location relatively quickly, but of course the relatively precise location transmitted by the ones with a built in GPS is better, and it updates

406 ELT and EPIRBS are essentially identical except what activates them and EPIRBS float, but they save many people yearly, it works.

A PLB is pretty similar to either, except it has a shorter battery life once activated and requires you to turn it on, it’s not automatic. Many hang their hats on a Spot or now Garmin Inreach, but they do NOT connect to the Air Force rescue center, they will call them, but a PLB is better, just can’t message your buddies etc with a PLB.

I believe though it’s sort of a mute point as 121.5 ELT are now illegal to be sold in the US, those of with them are legal, but when they die they have to be replaced with a 406. I’m nursing mine until they die, I don’t believe I have the need for an ELT myself, now if I was flying in the NWT or some thing then I would.

Maybe you can buy used ones, even if it’s not legal I doubt anyone is watching.

[Mark89114]

I feel your pain.  I had to replace the battery in my 406 ELT and it was a couple hundred bucks, but it does last for 7 years I think.  It was a fairly sophisticated bit of kit, had a circuit board that did some magic, mainly being that after so many minutes of useage it was no longer useable.  It was lithium cells you could buy for $30 total but instead I had to buy an expensive battery.  

I accidentally set mine off and in the process of getting it turned off the NOAA (I think) had already called me asking if I was at the west side of the airport, I answered affirmative, so it does work.  Hopefully never need it.

[Pinecone]

121.5 ELTs get reported and do get found.  We just had one go off in a Cub at our field a few weeks ago.

But 406 is MUCH better.

Back when 406 EPIRBs came out for boats a friend had one.  They were taking the boat down to PR when they hit a storm and the boat dismasted.  My friend broke his leg.  Low overcast day, then turned on the EPIRB.  45 minutes later, a USCG C-130 dropped out of the overcast about 1/2 mile away and pointed right at them.  They circuled and dropped a package and a rescue jumper.  VERY impressive.

[Ibra]

ELT battery is a ripoff  here is a nice video on the topic 

 The thing did not work the only time when I need it…

[OR75]

I am curious how many lives the ELT saved in the lower 48 US. 
my guess is 0

Steve Fosset was found after a year or so 

i am not talking about flying in northern Canada or crossing the Indian Ocean 

[A64Pilot]

I believe the above link video gives a decent answer, how many lives saved is a tough statistic though, who’s to say the guy they found would have died if they were found the next day etc.

Issue as I see it is a 121.5 isn’t very good period, yes they get found at airports, but do they out in the woods?

Thats why I say don’t put money into fixing one, a 406 however is pretty darn near magic, like the above incident of a boat being dismasted, but it does have to be activated of course, and arguably if you get a PLB it needs to be either worn or very easily accessible, because it’s a manually activated thing.

We did a lot of E&E and survival training in the military, one truism was the only thing you can expect to have in a crash is what’s on your back, a few of us put together a DiDi Mao bag, a small bag of essentials that we kept right beside of us in the seat to grab on the way out. I used to do a lot of back country flying doing stupid stuff like landing on sand bars etc and this was a frequent topic of discussion, but as noted in the above video it’s very likely that they will look for you using ADSB, Radar and cell phone tracking if your in the lower 48. So maybe having ADSB out and your cell phone turned on is more important than an ELT? If you think about it between the ADSB data for the missions we fly and or the cell phone tracking all law enforcement agencies can apparently do now that’s probably a logical statement.

[atpdave]

2 hours ago, OR75 said:

I am curious how many lives the ELT saved in the lower 48 US. 
my guess is 0

[...]

Here's one that I know of personally, December 1981. Steve Smart was an acquaintance of mine. He became a preacher after that. No flight plan was filed and no one knew they were missing.

[EricJ]

One nice thing about the 406MHz systems is that they're not just ELTs, bit EPIRBs, PLBs, etc., are all on the same system.    So lost hikers, boaters, etc., are all on the same system.    I get the same registration renewals and stickers for the PLB that I use for hiking/kayaking/etc., as I do the ELT in the airplane.

 

[ttflyer]

We're doing a whole new dual G3X panel and had included upgrading our 121.5 ELT to a 406 mhz in the quote.  After watching the video above, I'm removing it from the quote.  I don't fly in Alaska, almost always fly IFR or at the very least with VFR flight following and we have ADS-B out (obviously) which is always telling the whole world exactly where I am.  I'm good saving the money...

[EricJ]

47 minutes ago, ttflyer said:

We're doing a whole new dual G3X panel and had included upgrading our 121.5 ELT to a 406 mhz in the quote.  After watching the video above, I'm removing it from the quote.  I don't fly in Alaska, almost always fly IFR or at the very least with VFR flight following and we have ADS-B out (obviously) which is always telling the whole world exactly where I am.  I'm good saving the money...

I'd suggest leaving it in.   The statistics in the vid are a bit misleading as far as the ability of an ELT to be able to help you in a particular crash.   The 406 ELTs work well in getting quick notice out that something has happened to you.   I've been contacted a couple times when mine went off inadvertently, and my contact chain got called in one case.   I was impressed.

If something bad does happen to you, you really want every chance that things go your way, and the 406 ELT goes a long way toward helping that, especially if you fly over remote areas.   The 121.5 ELT helps as well, and can assist a search team in locating a crash site if the GPS coordinates in the 406 stream don't exactly match where you wind up (which does happen according to the CAP folks).

It's like a shoulder harness, imho:  you may not ever need it, it might not even help in a crash, but on the off chance that it does, it's worth it that it was there.   If it's not there, it has zero chance of helping you.   

[Pinecone]

Agreed.

Another thing to get help to you as quickly as possible.