More maintinance frustrations....

[1980Mooney]

16 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Update to this, and more BS

Furthermore, after I had already received the aircraft back and flown it,  while discussing the situation with the shop, They informed me that the Airspeed switch for the gear lockout appeared to be getting hot and melting the tubing going to it....  They never said anything to me about it or gave me an option to choose to replace it, they just left in and kept quiet about it until the aircraft was gone from the field.  IMHO they handed me an aircraft with a known fire hazard.

I decided to take the aircraft to yet another avionics shop and have them do the ASI repair as well as address some other issues and make sure the airspeed switch wasn't a fire hazard.

Are we talking about the same airspeed switch that has been discussed here before?  Either a gold colored VEP switch or the fatter bare aluminum colored Whitman-General switch?

In either case you only have micro switches for a potential heat source which is not much.  With the VEP switch, that is a big disk of aluminum to dissipate any heat. See the first 2 threads. With the Whitman-General switch the tubing is not even connected to the switch.    It is tee-ed off the back of the ASI. See last thread and pics.  If the microswitch shorted out (almost impossible due to the switch design - it usually either sticks open or closed)  it would trip a breaker.

I can't see how that could melt any tubing  Something doesn't make sense in their description or your understanding.  

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[Austintatious]

On 9/15/2023 at 9:18 AM, JimB said:

I'd love to see some pictures of the upside down connector. If you look at a back plate on 530W rack, there are cutouts for the connectors. It would be virtually impossible to install them upside down.

 

The shop did take photos... I will get them and post them.

[Austintatious]

11 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Are we talking about the same airspeed switch that has been discussed here before?  Either a gold colored VEP switch or the fatter bare aluminum colored Whitman-General switch?

In either case you only have micro switches for a potential heat source which is not much.  With the VEP switch, that is a big disk of aluminum to dissipate any heat. See the first 2 threads. With the Whitman-General switch the tubing is not even connected to the switch.    It is tee-ed off the back of the ASI. See last thread and pics.  If the microswitch shorted out (almost impossible due to the switch design - it usually either sticks open or closed)  it would trip a breaker.

I can't see how that could melt any tubing  Something doesn't make sense in their description or your understanding.  

 

Thank you, the shop currently working on the airplane does not understand either... We are scratching our heads... This may have been a line of BS to try to obfuscate the ASI issue that arose after the instrument cert and to shuck responcibility... We just don't know, but the current shop is looking around to see any source of overheating.

[OR75]

Technology has made a lot of progress. 
We ( I personally don’t ) like complex systems that “talk” to each other

the result is install manuals that are 500+ pages for A&P to read when they were trained for a different set of skills 

 

 

 

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, OR75 said:

Technology has made a lot of progress. 
We ( I personally don’t ) like complex systems that “talk” to each other

the result is install manuals that are 500+ pages for A&P to read when they were trained for a different set of skills 

 

 

 

Likely very true.  But, as happened to the OP's plane, clearly shops are willing to charge big money to have those 'techs' NOT install your avionics properly!

[Pinecone]

There have always been good and bad in the service industry.

This is why things like Angie's List, Yelp, etc had spring up.  Even in the past, there was BBB for complaints and ratings.

The only way to deal with this is to share the information in the community and name names of shops that do good work and those that don't.

[Yetti]

You really cant get a D Sub in a Garmin backing plate upside down.  Unless they used the wrong number of pins connector.   Now pins can get get bent over.   Something experienced people look for when advanced troubleshooting.   Heck I did look for bad pins on the firetruck connector.       Airspeed switches getting hot...  IT's a switch based on diaphragm.   I would look for the defroster duct (hot all the time) or something shorting a bus bar as the source of the heat.

[MikeOH]

While I know nothing of Garmin backplates I have been dealing with D-subs for decades…I can’t imagine the force it would take to mate them upside down! Plus, nothing would be connected properly even if some of the pins managed to mate. Anything else on that connector wouldn’t work either and I’d think the Garmin would have a fit!

 I’d love to see photos of this.

[OR75]

19 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Likely very true.  But, as happened to the OP's plane, clearly shops are willing to charge big money to have those 'techs' NOT install your avionics properly!

And customers willing to pony up that sort of money as well. 

The big money the shops charge is exactly equal to the big money folks are ready to fork out 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, OR75 said:

And customers willing to pony up that sort of money as well. 

The big money the shops charge is exactly equal to the big money folks are ready to fork out 

Hey, that sounds like economics or marketing -- are you one of those B-school people?

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, OR75 said:

And customers willing to pony up that sort of money as well. 

The big money the shops charge is exactly equal to the big money folks are ready to fork out 

Sounds like you’re implying I’m criticizing capitalism; I’m not!

I’m criticizing paying big money only to have the job done wrong!

I sure hope you don’t find that acceptable just because owners keep paying and keep getting screwed makes it their fault not the shop’s

I’m tired of having posters coming to the defense of shops that screw up and fail to make it right or take any kind of responsibility. Too many somehow blame the aircraft owner: he should have known better, everyone makes mistakes, you’ll know better next time, just the way it works in GA, avionics installs are difficult, bribe your shop with donuts/beer/pizza…really, this is acceptable??

Fine if they’re underpaid then raise the rates. But do the job right and reasonably on time and don’t shirk your responsibility if you screw up!

[JimB]

18 hours ago, MikeOH said:

While I know nothing of Garmin backplates I have been dealing with D-subs for decades…I can’t imagine the force it would take to mate them upside down! Plus, nothing would be connected properly even if some of the pins managed to mate. Anything else on that connector wouldn’t work either and I’d think the Garmin would have a fit!

 I’d love to see photos of this.

Yes. The P5001 is the connector providing NAV and ARINC info. It also provides power to the unit.....

[Austintatious]

Well, my fun continues... but before I lament about my apparent bad luck... As promised here is the photo of the upside down garmin D sub connector....  So glad the FAA required certified people to do avionics work... otherwise you might have airplanes flying around out there for 20 years because amateurs might mess something up /s

 

Anyhow, I got a call today from this shop... the ASI issue is fixed along with a few instrument lights replaced and my broken analog clock has been replaced by a davtron digital, so that is nice...  They called however to tell me they still cant figure out why my Autopilot will not engage.  They suspected the trim servo and knowing I had a spare on hand they contacted me to see if I could bring it to them, which I did.

When I got there, we took a look at the plane and as I was powering it up they mentioned that my G2 insight engine monitor was doing something weird...  Which it is.  

Looks like an old TV screen but solid.   It is getting really frustrating sending my aircraft in to shops only to have more stuff break on the shops watch... Is is coincidence?  did they hook me up to 24v?  Is the insight garbage?   I don't know....  I will say that this is in fact the second time I have had this exact failure of the insight G2 GEM.  This requires removal and sending the unit to Insight for a min  $350.00 repair.

I got lucky last time and this time since I was not at the plane for a flight only to scrub it.  But 2 of these failures in 3 years does not have me very confident in this instrument... and it does ground me... So I have opted to buy another head unit to keep on hand in the aircraft so that I do not end up stranded.  

As for the Autopilot... I know these guys know what they are doing... at this point they have bench tested (at great cost to me) the AP computer, the trim and pitch servos and the wiring... only the roll servo remains which they will be tackling today... The only silver lining here is that if they can get the AP working again, the AC will be in tip top shape.

[GeeBee]

The G2 in my SuperCub did that on occasion and what I did was remove the card, pull and reset the CB with power on the aircraft and it reset. Might try that.

[Austintatious]

48 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The G2 in my SuperCub did that on occasion and what I did was remove the card, pull and reset the CB with power on the aircraft and it reset. Might try that.

Well, that would have been nice to know...  I called Insight and had them on the phone and was told by them I have to send it in...  I had already tried powering it down and back up a few times.

[hammdo]

My G2 did the exact same thing. I sent mine back to insight as nothing worked. They upgraded it and now it’s worked flawless since. Was an eeprom issue…

-Don

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

Well, that would have been nice to know...  I called Insight and had them on the phone and was told by them I have to send it in...  I had already tried powering it down and back up a few times.

I think it has to do with the SD card somehow fouling the boot up. That is just a guess, but my experience seems to point in that direction. 

[NewMoon]

On 9/17/2023 at 7:29 PM, MikeOH said:

Sounds like you’re implying I’m criticizing capitalism; I’m not!

I’m criticizing paying big money only to have the job done wrong!

I sure hope you don’t find that acceptable just because owners keep paying and keep getting screwed makes it their fault not the shop’s

I’m tired of having posters coming to the defense of shops that screw up and fail to make it right or take any kind of responsibility. Too many somehow blame the aircraft owner: he should have known better, everyone makes mistakes, you’ll know better next time, just the way it works in GA, avionics installs are difficult, bribe your shop with donuts/beer/pizza…really, this is acceptable??

Fine if they’re underpaid then raise the rates. But do the job right and reasonably on time and don’t shirk your responsibility if you screw up!

100% agree, I could not have said it better. 

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, Austintatious said:

As promised here is the photo of the upside down garmin D sub-connector

HOLY CRAP!

No limit to what a motivated Neanderthal can accomplish, I guess! 

I've occasionally had my Insight G3 brick like that; cycling the master has always 'fixed' it on the re-boot.  Hasn't happened in a while (knock on wood).  I've also had it come up with a mirror image screen: 

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Well, my fun continues... but before I lament about my apparent bad luck... As promised here is the photo of the upside down garmin D sub connector....  So glad the FAA required certified people to do avionics work... otherwise you might have airplanes flying around out there for 20 years because amateurs might mess something up

I can hardly believe what I'm looking at with that D-sub connector.  That pic is priceless.  Someone should get the Darwin award for that.

[Austintatious]

12 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I can hardly believe what I'm looking at with that D-sub connector.  That pic is priceless.  Someone should get the Darwin award for that.

Well,  the sad truth is that this has probably cost me around $3000.00-$4000.00 between the 3 shops I have had looking into this issue and who have been unable to figure out why My ILS wont work. 

[Austintatious]

OK, I'm going to give a final update on how this all played out.

I got a call day before yesterday from the avionics shop...   with a "quote"....   I put quote in parenthesis because As the lady went down the list of line items, I knew 2 things... one being that most of the things she was listing had already been completed on the airplane and 2 that the prices she was spitting out where not even close to what had been discussed.  She finished with a "quote" of   20,000.00  ....  Needless to say, I was floored.

I wont get into all the details, but I will say that there was clearly a communication problem.  I had requested several times to know how much these things were costing and could not get an answer.  And in some cases, such as the Dsub connector being upside down, I had flat out been told 1200.00 but was now looking at a 2800.00 charge.  I also learned that the shops minimum labor charge for ANY line item was 4 hours... This was obvious when They tried to charge me 8 hours at 1400.00 to take the top left panel loose and re connect the OAT spade connector, which the shop that broke the ASI left loose and to put in a new digital clock in the same panel.  The actual clock cost 350.00.   

Anyhow, over about 35 min in person we went down through all the line items.  It was an  experience and Apparently I was ignorant that aviation maintenance operates in a "blank check" manner...  I was told in so many polite words that I was quibbling over small amounts of money while flying a $750k airplane.  

As it turned out  $9500.00 of the 20k was for a replacement Autopilot computer, which I never was even told about until this day, they pulled that unit back out of the airplane and Between that and the other items we discussed, the total was brought down to 6700 + tax which covered the following work

1- Reconnect OAT

2-  install new clock

3- Check Airspeed switch for any signs of overheating (as reported by previous shop)

4- Correct the ASI issue, which consisted of replacing it with a customer supplied ASI which needed to be tested/certified

5- Re connect "light bar" for the KI256 ADI,  How it got disconnected I have no idea.

6- Troubleshoot Autopilot including bench testing Computer ( about 2500.00 worth which I did not contest)

 

I will say that the shop was mostly open to my  protest and admitted some of the issues were on their end and vowed to do better and did work with me towards compromise on the bill.  I acknowledge that I could have done differently and I vow to in the future by doing the following

1.  Set a CLEAR and WRITTEN expectation of being given a quote on any work BEFORE it is performed so that I may consider the situation and make a decision and authorize the work in writing.  This protects both parties.

2.  Set clear and WRITTEN dollar limits for which I am to be contacted before proceeding beyond on items that are difficult to quote precisely.

3.  When I drop the AC off at the shop, do a run through WITH A TECH to determine what equipment is operational or INOP so that if the shop breaks something there is no wiggling out of it.... This all started with the ASI at the other shop and at this shop the GEM stopped working on their watch.

 

That being said, this experience has me even more certain that going experimental is in my future.

 

 

 

[Echo]

58 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

OK, I'm going to give a final update on how this all played out.

I got a call day before yesterday from the avionics shop...   with a "quote"....   I put quote in parenthesis because As the lady went down the list of line items, I knew 2 things... one being that most of the things she was listing had already been completed on the airplane and 2 that the prices she was spitting out where not even close to what had been discussed.  She finished with a "quote" of   20,000.00  ....  Needless to say, I was floored.

I wont get into all the details, but I will say that there was clearly a communication problem.  I had requested several times to know how much these things were costing and could not get an answer.  And in some cases, such as the Dsub connector being upside down, I had flat out been told 1200.00 but was now looking at a 2800.00 charge.  I also learned that the shops minimum labor charge for ANY line item was 4 hours... This was obvious when They tried to charge me 8 hours at 1400.00 to take the top left panel loose and re connect the OAT spade connector, which the shop that broke the ASI left loose and to put in a new digital clock in the same panel.  The actual clock cost 350.00.   

Anyhow, over about 35 min in person we went down through all the line items.  It was an  experience and Apparently I was ignorant that aviation maintenance operates in a "blank check" manner...  I was told in so many polite words that I was quibbling over small amounts of money while flying a $750k airplane.  

As it turned out  $9500.00 of the 20k was for a replacement Autopilot computer, which I never was even told about until this day, they pulled that unit back out of the airplane and Between that and the other items we discussed, the total was brought down to 6700 + tax which covered the following work

1- Reconnect OAT

2-  install new clock

3- Check Airspeed switch for any signs of overheating (as reported by previous shop)

4- Correct the ASI issue, which consisted of replacing it with a customer supplied ASI which needed to be tested/certified

5- Re connect "light bar" for the KI256 ADI,  How it got disconnected I have no idea.

6- Troubleshoot Autopilot including bench testing Computer ( about 2500.00 worth which I did not contest)

 

I will say that the shop was mostly open to my  protest and admitted some of the issues were on their end and vowed to do better and did work with me towards compromise on the bill.  I acknowledge that I could have done differently and I vow to in the future by doing the following

1.  Set a CLEAR and WRITTEN expectation of being given a quote on any work BEFORE it is performed so that I may consider the situation and make a decision and authorize the work in writing.  This protects both parties.

2.  Set clear and WRITTEN dollar limits for which I am to be contacted before proceeding beyond on items that are difficult to quote precisely.

3.  When I drop the AC off at the shop, do a run through WITH A TECH to determine what equipment is operational or INOP so that if the shop breaks something there is no wiggling out of it.... This all started with the ASI at the other shop and at this shop the GEM stopped working on their watch.

 

That being said, this experience has me even more certain that going experimental is in my future.

 

 

 

I feel badly for you.  I am having difficulty getting a quote for two very straight forward items right now.  Shops are busy.  Life is good.  Price how you want and get it done when you want rules the day.  For now.  Car dealerships in same position.  For now.  Like fishing with a grenade.  Good if you are a fisherman.  Bad if you are a fish.  Good luck with repairs done RIGHT.  Hope it finally works out.  Scott

[Austintatious]

On 9/30/2023 at 9:33 AM, Echo said:

I feel badly for you.  I am having difficulty getting a quote for two very straight forward items right now.  Shops are busy.  Life is good.  Price how you want and get it done when you want rules the day.  For now.  Car dealerships in same position.  For now.  Like fishing with a grenade.  Good if you are a fisherman.  Bad if you are a fish.  Good luck with repairs done RIGHT.  Hope it finally works out.  Scott

Yea, The above story got even worse... I discovered that the instrument lights they were supposed to fix (and claimed they did and charged me for it) still do not work..  So I still have 3 instruments that have no lighting and cannot fly in the dark.  I don't even know what to do now as it requires removing my instrument panel to fix the lights.  I didn't bother posting about it because I am completely dejected about the whole thing.   In 4 years my situation is going to change and I will be abandoning certified aircraft for experimental, this is no longer tenable being at the mercy of bad maintenance.

 

Hope you have a better experience.

[MikeOH]

WOW! Just unbelievable.

 I can’t believe these shops don’t realize they are just driving customers away…either to the few honest shops left or to experimental. Maybe they think they’ll all survive just on the uber rich  turbo-prop and jet customers…that kind of attitude and greed will turn karma on them at some point. Maybe they don’t care; made the big bucks while they could and have no issue with closing their doors when the market swings?