First time airplane owner - considering a 1964 M20E - advice?

[ElisiumNate]

31 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I have seen this plane back in April when I went to look at another Mooney that Foothill (Curtis Cable) has for sale (for another MS poster).  I'm afraid I only walked by it so I can't give you any details other than it's been sitting outside for sale since then.

My concern with the zero time since OH prop would be an undocumented prop strike (which requires an engine inspection that may not have been done).  As others have said, you also need to find out if it is subject to the 100 hour periodic eddy current inspection AD.

Getting your IFR cert will help significantly with your insurance premium, but I'm not so sure about Commercial and CFI.  If you haven't already, you should contact our resident insurance broker that many of us here use: @Parker_Woodruff

Thanks for the perpective! Was this the other airplane you were looking at? I like this one too! https://shorturl.at/ghpx0

[MikeOH]

12 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

Greatly appreciate all of this.  Certainly has me considering the overhaul downtime, which I had not considered.  Starting to seem more like I should keep looking for a plane that has been flying regularly, not one that has been sitting.  These are all great points.  

How long have you been looking?  And, how many planes have you seriously looked at?  By that I mean reviewed the logs and spoken with the seller (may or may not have laid eyes on the plane).

I looked at an embarrassing number of planes before finding mine.  After awhile you get to the point you can quickly rule out the 'dogs'.  When I went and saw my plane I made an offer on the spot (contingent on a pre-buy).  A good candidate will 'jump out' at you after you have some experience.  It was my first plane and I did NOT want to screw it up!

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

Thanks for the perpective! Was this the other airplane you were looking at? I like this one too! https://shorturl.at/ghpx0

Yuup, that's the one.

[takair]

3 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Here she is - https://shorturl.at/otBQ4

What do you all think?? 

I love my 64E.  I bought mine for similar reasons….over 25 years ago…..and then couldn’t let it go.  The one you posted here looks more like a 1965….which is not a bad thing.  The original 1964 model, like mine,  had round windows and screws holding the cowl together.  

[ElisiumNate]

Valid question on how long have I been looking! I've been compiling a sheet of planes for a little over a year, but finally (in Jan 2024) I'll get to the salary I need to feel comfortable making the purchase.  As such, I've been taking a deeper look at each, and trying to fly as many types as I can.  I've flown Piper Cherokee 235s, Warriors, and an Arrow.  So far the Mooney has really impressed me the most, and quickly become that "dream plane" so I've been looking for insurance details, other roadblocks, and a fella who owns a 1983 J model suggested that I join this group.  

What did you think of that other Mooney, the 1974 one? Sounds like it's only flown a few hundred hours since '07 maybe? I'm certainly still looking, but getting closer!! 

[MikeOH]

13 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

Valid question on how long have I been looking! I've been compiling a sheet of planes for a little over a year, but finally (in Jan 2024) I'll get to the salary I need to feel comfortable making the purchase.  As such, I've been taking a deeper look at each, and trying to fly as many types as I can.  I've flown Piper Cherokee 235s, Warriors, and an Arrow.  So far the Mooney has really impressed me the most, and quickly become that "dream plane" so I've been looking for insurance details, other roadblocks, and a fella who owns a 1983 J model suggested that I join this group.  

What did you think of that other Mooney, the 1974 one? Sounds like it's only flown a few hundred hours since '07 maybe? I'm certainly still looking, but getting closer!! 

See your PMs.

[Bartman]

Welcome to Mooneyspace @ElisiumNate  

I read on this site and researched for several months to educate myself. I only looked at two M20J and the first one was OK, but needed work and was overpriced.  The second one was well equipped for that time, flew often, and had 700 on the engine. It was priced near the top of the market at that time and other than some upgrades and regular maintenance I got 1200 hours of trouble free flight time before a 2020 engine overhaul.

There are good planes out there and there is a wealth of information on this website to help you in your search.  You will find the right one. 

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Good call on the "Why a new prop?" part - I added that to my list for tomorrow's call.  

The specs say overhauled prop, not new prop. An overhauled prop is not a very likely indication of a prop strike, just a prop that hadn't been used much over many years and was in need of attention - maybe leaking grease? If the prop logs show new blades that's another story, but overhauling the hub and cutting down the blades doesn't mean prop strike.

I prefer an IRAN (Inspect and Replace parts As Necessary) on a prop since it doesn't require cutting down the baldes.

[ElisiumNate]

After chatting with you all here, I'm starting to think that the old engine + it sitting outside are going to be deal breakers for someone like myself.  I want to buy a plane that I can fly right away, and even if I have to upgrade the avionics to get them where I want them I'd rather buy a plane that is flying regularly and not a fixer-upper.  

If anyone sees any great airplanes out there, please send the links in here or DM me.  

[Pinecone]

Get a copy of the logs and both you and you A&P/IA review them for any other strange things.  First airplane I put an offer in on had some serious issues upon log inspection.

A good panel is a good thing, as they are quite expensive, but only bring about 50% of what they cost back upon sale.

PRICE overhauls for good shops first.  Make SURE you have the funds.  And check on lead times.  You may be buying an airplane that will shortly be down for many months.  6 - 9 is not out of the realm of possiblity.  The other option is a factory reman.  You can order it, fly the airplane while waiting, then have a short downtime for the swap.  Assuming your engine is airworthy.  But it will cost more to fo this route,

[Echo]

18 hours ago, ElisiumNate said:

Hey all! First time post, brand new here but totally seeing the love for Mooneys! I am a PPL (130 hours) and just finished my complex endorsement in a Piper Arrow.  I want to buy an airplane, and the speed, efficiency, and even price of the Mooney C and E models are very appealing! 

YouTube is full of showboating, so I'd like to see if I can get some real advice from real owners here about whether a M20 C, E (or other model) would be a good choice for a new airplane owner.  

Thanks for your time! 

The first plane I bought was a M20E. I had around 100 hours total time and did my complex training in an Arrow. 
 

100% agree that currently flying is huge. If not price for a $35k+ bill and significant down time.

Avionics are expensive. Try and find a plane that has been upgraded to your liking. 
 

Corrosion in tubes?  Walk away. 
 

Leaking(not seeping) tanks are a $10k hit. Inquire about tank/fuel sender leaks

Paint and interior: Find one you can live with and appears to have been loved (hangered and not ratty)

I am picking up my next and final plane next week. M20E again. Just a great two plus dogs and stuff hauler. Good luck!!!  in your search. 

[C.J.]

@ElisiumNate    FWIW According to FlightAware N79821 was last flown on 14 August 2022 

N79821 Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

Welcome to MooneySpace & best of luck in your search.

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, C.J. said:

@ElisiumNate    FWIW According to FlightAware N79821 was last flown on 14 August 2022 (fifty three weeks inactive)  N79821 Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

Welcome to MooneySpace & best of luck in your search.

FlightAware doesn't pick up all flights, and virtually no local-area flights.

[C.J.]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

FlightAware doesn't pick up all flights, and virtually no local-area flights.

That's why I wrote FWIW (for what it's worth). And the plane has been in Upland, CA presumably for sale during that period too.

[Fly Boomer]

47 minutes ago, C.J. said:

@ElisiumNate    FWIW According to FlightAware N79821 was last flown on 14 August 2022 

N79821 Flight Tracking and History - FlightAware

Welcome to MooneySpace & best of luck in your search.

Beyond that one flight, FlightAware reports:

"No History Data (searched last 3 months)"

EDIT:  I just noticed that the flight posted by @C.J. was 2022, so not just "last 3 months" but far beyond.  Could ask for a PAPR but usually FlightAware picks up flights that have little or no ADSB data while the PAPR is ADSB only.

[ElisiumNate]

2 hours ago, Echo said:

The first plane I bought was a M20E. I had around 100 hours total time and did my complex training in an Arrow. 
 

100% agree that currently flying is huge. If not price for a $35k+ bill and significant down time.

Avionics are expensive. Try and find a plane that has been upgraded to your liking. 
 

Corrosion in tubes?  Walk away. 
 

Leaking(not seeping) tanks are a $10k hit. Inquire about tank/fuel sender leaks

Paint and interior: Find one you can live with and appears to have been loved (hangered and not ratty)

I am picking up my next and final plane next week. M20E again. Just a great two plus dogs and stuff hauler. Good luck!!!  in your search. 

Thanks! Crazy how similar our Mooney paths seem to be. I am all but committed to the Mooney now that I’ve flown one. Piper previously had me for sure but I just am developing a thing for the Mooney..! 

I will definitely not buy one that has been sitting, I think this is great advice and I appreciate it. It means my search continues! 

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, ElisiumNate said:

Thanks! Crazy how similar our Mooney paths seem to be. I am all but committed to the Mooney now that I’ve flown one. Piper previously had me for sure but I just am developing a thing for the Mooney..! 

I will definitely not buy one that has been sitting, I think this is great advice and I appreciate it. It means my search continues! 

The number of airplanes for sale seems to be near a historical high, so finding them is not so hard, but having so many to choose from may make it more difficult to find the right one.

[MikeOH]

50 minutes ago, Hank said:

FlightAware doesn't pick up all flights, and virtually no local-area flights.

Hmm, maybe location dependent but here in the Los Angeles area all of my local flights have shown up on FlightAware.

[C.J.]

OK - so I just spent ten minutes looking at N79821's engine log #2 and prop log #2. On 9/1/2018 TT was 2776 & on 9/14/2020 TT was 2888 (12 hours in 24 months) and on 3/3/2023 TT was 2919 (31 hours in 30 months). Prop was removed in Sept 2022 for overhaul & re-installed 3/3/2023 during annual. By the MS consensus/definition this is a pretty inactive plane.

 

[ElisiumNate]

I am infinitely grateful for your advice here, and for reviewing the logs -- above and beyond! 

I've decided to pass on this one, and look for a specimen that is active and flying, even if it costs more dollars.  

I sincerely appreciate all of the honest and generous feedback.  Great group here! 

[vik]

12 hours ago, Pinecone said:

A good panel is a good thing, as they are quite expensive, but only bring about 50% of what they cost back upon sale.

Well, only half of this statement is always true - expensive.

Sellers of the planes with  good panels/avionics know about year long waiting lists and very sloooow shops the potential buyer will have to deal with to upgrade the panel later. They price good stuff accordingly.

These days, trying to discount a good panel 50% means you are passing on that plane and will have to deal with the upgrade later, and, most likely, pay more. Significantly more. Do not forget to add the price of that rental C172 over several months you are without your plane to the total bill! And plan to ground yourself for some time once all is done and paid - to recover from a sticker shock

Vik

[AndreiC]

Here is my perspective, as someone who has owned 5 planes so far, over a period of 20+ years, and maybe did not yet drink the Mooney Kool-Aid completely (yet). For reference I have about 1400 hours, am IFR rated (though I don’t fly instruments nearly enough), and now have an M20E. 
 

The number one statement I want to make is that while the speed and comfort of a retractable gear/constant speed prop are great, having them is a huge expense which can’t be justified unless you plan to regularly travel distances. My previous plane, which I had for over 10 years, was a Piper Cherokee 180. Useful load was better by close to 100lbs, it had more room inside, the visibility was better, insurance was 1/4 of what I pay now, annuals were 1/3 of those for Mooneys. On a typical 180 mile trip I now save 15 minutes, not a lot. And the Cherokee could handle grass strips better than the Mooney.  (I guess; I still have not dared fly into my favorite strip, 2P2 with the M20.)

That is to say that Mooneys are great for what they do, travel fast for a little gas, but this *must* be your profile. Building time is certainly not its strength. 

An old time mechanic that used to do the annuals in a Piper Comanche I owned long time ago used to say “for normal people (meaning not super rich) a retractable gear is an unjustifiable luxury”. Yes, the temptation to go fast is surely there, but make sure you can afford it! At the time it turned out I could *not* afford it — the Comanche was sold after less than 1 year, having had lost me all the money I got from the sale of my previous humble Cherokee 140.

Another thing I see here is people planning on costs for 100-150 hours per year. The mechanic who maintained my former Cherokee always congratulated me for flying 40-50 hours per year. For most people, after the initial excitement of owning a plane is gone (maybe 1 year), jobs, family responsibilities, other hobbies, and costs bring down the flying to 15-20 hours per year. Unless you have clear reasons (and time!) to travel places, there are only so many $100 burgers you’ll want to go to. This is why you see so many planes with low time engines overhauled 20 years ago.

Lastly, here is my $0.02 on avionics. They are shiny and nice, but they won’t keep you up in the air. If I were buying a plane, I would focus on getting the best plane I can get for my money — mechanics-wise. A low time engine from the factory or a well-known overhaul shop is what I’d shop for. Or expect a year downtime plus $60-70k to get an overhaul done right. An airframe that was flown a lot and had all the little things that come up every now and then done on time is also important, or be prepared to see all kind of unexpected surprises and costs. You can tell a plane that was treated with respect from the logbooks — the more frequent the entries the better. Avionics would be last on my list, unless you plan to spend huge amounts of time in the clouds (and even then the reliability of electronics over steam gauges is borderline, especially in this day and age when you can buy a backup electronic artificial horizon in a Stratus receiver for $500, if your vacuum pump goes South on you).
 

Spend your money on flying a lot and frequently, know your plane well, and fly with old time flight instructors who have been through a lot. 90% of accidents happen because of stupid pilot decisions and not because the plane did not have the latest electronic gizmo. 

[ElisiumNate]

Excellent feedback, and I appreciate you taking the time to say all of that! I have been thinking about this a lot lately.  I got my insurance quote, and it's high.  I want to build time, not necessarily get there as fast as possible.  I can say for sure that I'm caught up in the Mooney love-fest but I am sure it will fade as reality sets in a little more! I'm more likely to be a Piper owner due to that factors you mentioned, but, I just want to keep an open mind.  I don't know how many planes I'll buy in my lifetime, so I really want to love the one I own.  

[AndreiC]

It is amazing how much having a reliable plane (or a bag of troubles) can make you love or hate one. I owned 3 Cherokees, and I liked them all, simple and easy to operate. I kinda assume that’s what the venerable C182 is — simple and trouble free. I had a love-hate relationship with the Comanche. It was a beautiful plane, I can still remember how it smelled now, 15 years after. Flew beautifully. But the costs drove me nuts, all the time something small broke. I am glad I found a buyer for it when I did. You know what they say (usually about boat owners, but it applies to plane owners too) — the happiest two days are the day you buy her, and the day you sell. (Well, not quite. I still miss ol’ Cherokee 180, which I sold 5 months ago to buy the M20E.)

[Pinecone]

The value of the avionics seems to me to be 1/2 the installed cost, which is about the cost of the avionics, not incluing installs.

The pipeline for avionics is pretty filled now (mine were ordered in May and are all at the shop waiting), but still delays getting shop time from good installers.