Looking at buying a Mooney

[A64Pilot]

Cost seems to be a significant driver, the cost to fly a complex aircraft is much higher than a non complex. Fuel isn’t really as big a cost as you may suppose and building time, is best done in a slower aircraft.

In my opinion a Piper Warrior or similar can do everything you want at a significantly lower operating cost than a Mooney and odds are in a few years you will get your money back when you sell, most older aircraft have to some extent depreciated out, what drives value is condition more than anything,while glass is nice save it until your sure it’s likely your last airplane as it does depreciate.

Buy something similar to build time in, get your Instrument rating and with the instrument rating and significant time the Mooney insurance will be much lower, and more importantly with more experience your less likely to make a serious mistake

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Devin]

19 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Nope.  They are pretty much the same for mx.  

Awesome.  Thank you

[Devin]

8 minutes ago, Bolter said:

Budget is important but a quick summary of the COMMON non-turbo Mooney's by body size.  Higher letters are newer models, and generally more expensive:

• C and E: short bodies.  Back seaters will have less room, crew has the same space as longer bodies
• F and J: mid-bodies.  The J replaced the F with several upgrades that some people retrofit to F's.  Both are 200HP Lycomings.  Ample back seat room, may run out of cargo space for a bigger family trip.  The J is probably the most fuel efficient of all the Mooney's.  
• R and S: Long bodies.  Lots of passenger and cargo space.  These are the big engine models with different horsepower versions of the Continental 550

With a family flight you always need to watch useful load.  Some of these may be down to 800 pounds, and a high may be around 1100 pounds.  

Common experience is that a family trip means around 2 hour stretches before the complaints start.  Keep that in mind when planning how much fuel you will really need for a trip.  With training and my obstinance, we do up to 4 hour stretches.  The complaints still start at 2 hours, though.

Great info.  Thank you so much

[rickseeman]

You are on the right track with an F. I took 2 friends with me (and they weren't small) from Arkansas to Los Angeles and back in mine so it can be done. F's have a good engine and are basically a no surprise airplane. Mine was manual gear and flaps. I found no down side to this. And it will make the purchase price cheaper if you find one of those. Corrosion is always something to look for on any plane of this age. It would be nice to find something near your location.

[Devin]

9 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Cost seems to be a significant driver, the cost to fly a complex aircraft is much higher than a non comolex. Fuel isn’t really as big a cost as you may suppose and building time, is best done in a slower aircraft.

In my opinion a Piper Warrior or similar can do everything you want at a significantly lower operating cost than a Mooney and odds are in a few years you will get your money back when you sell, most older aircraft have to some extent depreciated out, what drives value is condition more than anything,while glass is nice save it until your sure it’s likely your last airplane as it does depreciate.

Buy something similar to build time in, get your Instrument rating and with the instrument rating and significant time the Mooney insurance will be much lower

 

Taking the insurance out of the equation is the cost of operating a late model Mooney with J Bar landing gear with rubber pucks and Hydraulic flaps really significantly higher than the operating costs of say a piper warrior?  If I can burn less gas in a Mooney or worse case burn the same gas as a piper warrior and the landing gear and flaps are relatively maintenance free with the J Bar and hydraulic flaps then wouldn't the Mooney be about the same operating cost as the warrior or something similar?  It seems like the big difference is obviously the insurance but as more hours are built in the complex aircraft and other ratings are obtained such as IFR then the insurance will start to decrease.  I do understand I will pay a higher insurance rate initially in the aircraft but my thinking is why not get into the complex aircraft that seems to have way less complex costs compared to other complex planes and start building the hours right away in order to satisfy insurance enough to start lowering the premiums.  My plan is to fly about 80-100 hours a month and my thought process is to purchase a plane and get my IFR rating right away in that plane.   By the time I get my IFR rating I will have around 50 hours alone in that particular plane and should be feeling pretty comfortable in it and how it performs and what not so that when I take my family on trips I will feel confident and safe with them in the plane I have been flying the most in.  I wouldn't want to have that experience and then sell it and go to an entire different plane that has different nuances and tendencies and start over getting comfortable with it.  So the question I ask myself is if operating costs are about the same minus the insurance and in order to get insurance premiums to be pretty reasonable in a complex plain I need hours and experience in a complex plane then lets get the complex plain and start getting hours and experience.  If however it is a significant operating costs difference between the two then I can definitely see the benefits of going the other way.  If the experience though of flying a Mooney is what the large majority of Mooney owners say it is compared to other aircraft and operating costs are about the same minus the insurance, which the insurance costs will go down with time and experience, and I can get a better burn rate when I want to fly solo and slow yet when I want to go cross country I can go a little faster and still have a better burn rate then the last question I ask myself is why not just get the Mooney.  I'm also hoping that with getting 80 to 100 hours a month I won't have to carry the higher insurance premiums to long.  Again with all that said I don't know what I don't know so I greatly appreciate your comment and future comments.

[Devin]

46 minutes ago, rickseeman said:

You are on the right track with an F. I took 2 friends with me (and they weren't small) from Arkansas to Los Angeles and back in mine so it can be done. F's have a good engine and are basically a no surprise airplane. Mine was manual gear and flaps. I found no down side to this. And it will make the purchase price cheaper if you find one of those. Corrosion is always something to look for on any plane of this age. It would be nice to find something near your location.

Nice!  How many stops did you have to make from Arkansas to LA?

[Pinecone]

Buy your last plane first. 

Look at longer term, and what you want to do with the plane.

As for fling 80 - 100 hours a month, that is a LOT of flying.   At those numbers, you will want a good autopilot.

I agree with the slower plane for building time.  I just did Denver to Maryland non-stop in my 252.   And it only took 7 hours.

[Devin]

19 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Buy your last plane first. 

Look at longer term, and what you want to do with the plane.

As for fling 80 - 100 hours a month, that is a LOT of flying.   At those numbers, you will want a good autopilot.

I agree with the slower plane for building time.  I just did Denver to Maryland non-stop in my 252.   And it only took 7 hours.

Thats awesome!  Thanks for the comment.  Just to be clear though you say buy your last plane first and then later you say you agree with the slower plane for building time so are you saying you would buy the slower plane like cherokee warrior for building time and then sell and get a different plane (which would go against buying your last plane first) or are you saying get your last plane first like the Mooney and when doing a time building flight fly it slow like a slower plane?

[rickseeman]

2 hours ago, Devin said:

Nice!  How many stops did you have to make from Arkansas to LA?

We went to Vegas on the way out. I think we only stopped in Albuquerque on the way out to Vegas and then made 2 stops on the way back from LA. 

[Ragsf15e]

37 minutes ago, Devin said:

Thats awesome!  Thanks for the comment.  Just to be clear though you say buy your last plane first and then later you say you agree with the slower plane for building time so are you saying you would buy the slower plane like cherokee warrior for building time and then sell and get a different plane (which would go against buying your last plane first) or are you saying get your last plane first like the Mooney and when doing a time building flight fly it slow like a slower plane?

If you only want to build time, buy the warrior. If you want to do any family trips, by the Mooney.

[Devin]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

If you only want to build time, buy the warrior. If you want to do any family trips, by the Mooney.

Ill be doing both building time and family trips.

[Ragsf15e]

19 minutes ago, Devin said:

Ill be doing both building time and family trips.

Id definitely be looking at a Mooney if I was you then.  F model or J.  Arrow or Cherokee 180 or C-182 also work but slower on the trips.

[Devin]

14 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Id definitely be looking at a Mooney if I was you then.  F model or J.  Arrow or Cherokee 180 or C-182 also work but slower on the trips.

Awesome, thank you

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, Devin said:

Thats awesome!  Thanks for the comment.  Just to be clear though you say buy your last plane first and then later you say you agree with the slower plane for building time so are you saying you would buy the slower plane like cherokee warrior for building time and then sell and get a different plane (which would go against buying your last plane first) or are you saying get your last plane first like the Mooney and when doing a time building flight fly it slow like a slower plane?

Personally I would get the airplane that will last me for a long time, and just accept that you will be flying longer distances.

But nothing like a 300 mile quick flight for a burger.

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

If you only want to build time, buy the warrior. If you want to do any family trips, by the Mooney.

This.

[KSMooniac]

80-100 hours per month sounds insane to me, but if you're going full time at it I suppose it is possible.  Don't forget that means 2x oil changes per month, and a 100 hr service.  While 100 hr inspection is not required for Pt 91 operations, there are Mooney maintenance tasks recommended at 100 hr intervals.  You'll want to have a good shop lined up, or better yet, your own hangar, tools, and friendly A&P/IA to help (if you're not one yourself).  You'll need jacks, maintenance manuals, grease guns, etc.  You might want to have tubes, tires, oil, and filters on hand as well.    

[Huckster79]

22 hours ago, Devin said:

Taking the insurance out of the equation is the cost of operating a late model Mooney with J Bar landing gear with rubber pucks and Hydraulic flaps really significantly higher than the operating costs of say a piper warrior?  If I can burn less gas in a Mooney or worse case burn the same gas as a piper warrior and the landing gear and flaps are relatively maintenance free with the J Bar and hydraulic flaps then wouldn't the Mooney be about the same operating cost as the warrior or something similar?  It seems like the big difference is obviously the insurance but as more hours are built in the complex aircraft and other ratings are obtained such as IFR then the insurance will start to decrease.  I do understand I will pay a higher insurance rate initially in the aircraft but my thinking is why not get into the complex aircraft that seems to have way less complex costs compared to other complex planes and start building the hours right away in order to satisfy insurance enough to start lowering the premiums.  My plan is to fly about 80-100 hours a month and my thought process is to purchase a plane and get my IFR rating right away in that plane.   By the time I get my IFR rating I will have around 50 hours alone in that particular plane and should be feeling pretty comfortable in it and how it performs and what not so that when I take my family on trips I will feel confident and safe with them in the plane I have been flying the most in.  I wouldn't want to have that experience and then sell it and go to an entire different plane that has different nuances and tendencies and start over getting comfortable with it.  So the question I ask myself is if operating costs are about the same minus the insurance and in order to get insurance premiums to be pretty reasonable in a complex plain I need hours and experience in a complex plane then lets get the complex plain and start getting hours and experience.  If however it is a significant operating costs difference between the two then I can definitely see the benefits of going the other way.  If the experience though of flying a Mooney is what the large majority of Mooney owners say it is compared to other aircraft and operating costs are about the same minus the insurance, which the insurance costs will go down with time and experience, and I can get a better burn rate when I want to fly solo and slow yet when I want to go cross country I can go a little faster and still have a better burn rate then the last question I ask myself is why not just get the Mooney.  I'm also hoping that with getting 80 to 100 hours a month I won't have to carry the higher insurance premiums to long.  Again with all that said I don't know what I don't know so I greatly appreciate your comment and future comments.

 

Yea, I think you are on the right track myself.  Especially looking at F or J... If you can swing a J- do it, for me personally I could afford a lot nicer F than I could a J, I would have been stretching to afford a J that wasn't run out... But each of our circumstances are different, had I been able to afford a J w a relatively fresh engine I would have.  But the price delta for similar engine hours and just J to F made the F my obvious choice, but again J is the haloed gal in the line up, if it can be done.  But you are better off, in my opinion, of making sure ya buy a solid bird that's not a fixer upper.  As in Id rather have a solid C model than a clapped out F.  Id rather have a solid F than a run out J.  But that is budget dependent and different for each of us to decide.  But with the cost and headache of an overhaul make sure the primary focus is on sound, quality engine, then down the list to other wants...

I think you're onto something with being a bit taken back by the advice to buy a simpler plane to save money then upgrade.  Nothing wrong with that route, but I think with quality training you are on the right track.  But we pilots are just a bit opinionated and we all have lots of opinions.  You'll have to take all of what all of us tell ya and triangulate off it to form your plan.  

I think really the only differences for cost is going to be the insurance and annual which you already acknowledged and it's not that that bad anyway.  I was 0 retract time, 500 total hours, my insurance started at $3300 it ends up like $2800 now that I have 25 hours in it.  My Cessna 140 with half the hull value was $1200.   Annual went from $1000 on the C140 to $2500 for the base annual.  So really the only potential for more cost over the Cessna would be if I had a repair on the landing gear or the CS prop... As both planes might need carb/injection work, both planes could have an attitude indicator fail, both planes could need a new alternator/generator, etc... 

So, sure with more "stuff" on board, more to break potentially, but if you aren't going for a doggedly simple plane like my old 140 which obviously you aren't if you are going to use it for family trips, there's just not that much more potential for repair costs.  I love the idea of my manual gear as that keeps things very simple there, so I think my manual gear a flaps are an advantage, from my perspective- less motors and switches....

So yea its going to be a bit more for insurance and annual than a fixed pitch fixed gear glorified trainer, but if you are financially secure enough that the fixed gear fixed prop wasn't the absolute most you could possibly afford, I don't think its going to be night and day...  I'm new into the Mooney so I could be very wrong, but from what I'm seeing and studied I don't believe I am.  I really think you are making a reasoned decision to go this route as long as you get some good estimates now what insurance and base annual will run and other basic costs and are comfortable with the figure- go buy your mooney

You will hear a lot of myths about these birds too, most are myths... The one that sticks out to me is they are a pain to slow down and pain to land.  I find when I pull the throttle back and raise my pitch it slows down, when I'm on final it's about like a chickenhawk to land- just about 10mph faster is all.  I think the hard to land reputation comes from folks flying sloppy and 80mph on final ends up 85-95mph- nope- peg your airspeed and it lands like any other plane.  I'm a rookie and usually make the first turn off without torching my brakes... Sure at a decent altitude ya have to plan your approach a bit more, and I've blown it, but it wasn't anything that one 360 didn't cure- learned a good lesson and move on as a better pilot for it... 

I also don't see prices going down on birds, save momentarily for a recession, but when we even look at those with cold hard logic- they last between a year to two, but these birds aren't being replaced by new ones at the rate we bend em or poorly taken care of ones corrode out... So I think buying your last plane first is not a bad idea, and that doesn't have to be 100% literally true as in ya can't ever upgrade, but I don't think I'd buy a Piper 4 place then the Mooney, if I could afford it, I'd just buy the mooney and be set for more years even if its not forever... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Huckster79

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Huckster79 said:

 

Yea, I think you are on the right track myself.  Especially looking at F or J... If you can swing a J- do it, for me personally I could afford a lot nicer F than I could a J, I would have been stretching to afford a J that wasn't run out... But each of our circumstances are different, had I been able to afford a J w a relatively fresh engine I would have.  But the price delta for similar engine hours and just J to F made the F my obvious choice, but again J is the haloed gal in the line up, if it can be done.  But you are better off, in my opinion, of making sure ya buy a solid bird that's not a fixer upper.  As in Id rather have a solid C model than a clapped out F.  Id rather have a solid F than a run out J.  But that is budget dependent and different for each of us to decide.  But with the cost and headache of an overhaul make sure the primary focus is on sound, quality engine, then down the list to other wants...

I think you're onto something with being a bit taken back by the advice to buy a simpler plane to save money then upgrade.  Nothing wrong with that route, but I think with quality training you are on the right track.  But we pilots are just a bit opinionated and we all have lots of opinions.  You'll have to take all of what all of us tell ya and triangulate off it to form your plan.  

I think really the only differences for cost is going to be the insurance and annual which you already acknowledged and it's not that that bad anyway.  I was 0 retract time, 500 total hours, my insurance started at $3300 it ends up like $2800 now that I have 25 hours in it.  My Cessna 140 with half the hull value was $1200.   Annual went from $1000 on the C140 to $2500 for the base annual.  So really the only potential for more cost over the Cessna would be if I had a repair on the landing gear or the CS prop... As both planes might need carb/injection work, both planes could have a attitude indicator fail, both planes could need a new alternator/generator, etc... 

So, sure with more "stuff" on board more to break potentially, but if you aren't going for a doggedly simple plane like my old 140 which obviously you aren't if you are going to use it for trips, there's just not that much more potential for repair costs.  I love the idea of my manual gear as that keeps things very simple there, so I think my manual gear an flaps are an advantage, from my perspective- let motors and switches....

So yea its going to be a bit more for insurance and annual than a fixed pitch fixed gear glorified trainer, but if you are financially secure enough that the fixed gear fixed prop wasn't the absolute most you could possibly afford, I don't think its going to be night and day...  I'm new into the Mooney so I could be very wrong, but from what I'm seeing and studied I don't believe I am.  I really think you are making a reasoned decision to go this route as long as you get some good estimates now what insurance and base annual will run and other basic costs and are comfortable with the figure- go buy your mooney

You will hear a lot of myths about these birds too, most are myths... The one that sticks out to me is they are a pain to slow down and pain to land.  I find when I pull the throttle back and raise my pitch it slows down, when I'm on final it's about like a chickenhawk to land- just about 10mph faster is all.  I think the hard to land reputation comes from folks flying sloppy and 80mph on final ends up 85-95mph- nope- peg your airspeed and it lands like any other plane.  I'm a rookie and usually make the first turn off without torching my brakes... Sure at a decent altitude ya have to plan your approach a bit more, and I've blown it, but it wasn't anything that one 360 didn't cure- learned a good lesson and move on as a better pilot for it... 

I also don't see prices going down on birds, save momentarily for a recession, but when we even look at those with cold hard logic- they last between a year to two, but these birds aren't being replaced by new ones at the rate we bend em or poorly taken care of ones corrode out... So I think buying your last plane first is not a bad idea, and that doesn't have to be 100% literally true as in ya can't ever upgrade, but I don't think I'd buy a Piper 4 place then the Mooney, if I could afford it, I'd just buy the mooney and be set for more years even if its not forever... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well said.

One more thing/myth/common thought for the OP… imo, fuel isn’t a big enough expense to really worry about.  I fly ~80-100 hours per year and use ~10gph.  100ll costs ~$6.50 where I live, so ~$6850/year.  If I averaged 13gph (impossible in a 200hp engine if you lean at all), that would be $7600.  So ~$800 different for a huge burn difference.  $800 is nothing in airplane language.  Heck if you find cheaper fuel and pay ~$5.80, then you just saved the $800.  Yes, fuel is expensive, but I spend $20k per year all in on my F.  Small changes in fuel efficiency/cost are nothing.

But I acknowledge that your going to fly more than me, however I still think it will be a small percentage of your total cost.

[MikeOH]

I have to echo Rags’ comments on fuel and total cost. I’m six years into owning my F and have averaged $17K per year, all expenses. I fly about 75 hours per year: I plan 10 gph at $6/gal is $4500, or less than 1/3 of total. And, my burn is more like 9 gph and in most cases I pay around $5.50/gal

[Hank]

31 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I have to echo Rags’ comments on fuel and total cost. I’m six years into owning my F and have averaged $17K per year, all expenses. I fly about 75 hours per year: I plan 10 gph at $6/gal is $4500, or less than 1/3 of total. And, my burn is more like 9 gph and in most cases I pay around $5.50/gal

The way I learnt math, that's almost dead on one quarter, and your lower actual expenses are less than one quarter of the total. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

The condition of the specific plane you buy likely has the biggest impact on what it costs to operate.   A warrior that was badly neglected may be much more expensive to operate than a very nicely maintained Mooney.  

[Devin]

8 hours ago, Huckster79 said:

 

Yea, I think you are on the right track myself.  Especially looking at F or J... If you can swing a J- do it, for me personally I could afford a lot nicer F than I could a J, I would have been stretching to afford a J that wasn't run out... But each of our circumstances are different, had I been able to afford a J w a relatively fresh engine I would have.  But the price delta for similar engine hours and just J to F made the F my obvious choice, but again J is the haloed gal in the line up, if it can be done.  But you are better off, in my opinion, of making sure ya buy a solid bird that's not a fixer upper.  As in Id rather have a solid C model than a clapped out F.  Id rather have a solid F than a run out J.  But that is budget dependent and different for each of us to decide.  But with the cost and headache of an overhaul make sure the primary focus is on sound, quality engine, then down the list to other wants...

I think you're onto something with being a bit taken back by the advice to buy a simpler plane to save money then upgrade.  Nothing wrong with that route, but I think with quality training you are on the right track.  But we pilots are just a bit opinionated and we all have lots of opinions.  You'll have to take all of what all of us tell ya and triangulate off it to form your plan.  

I think really the only differences for cost is going to be the insurance and annual which you already acknowledged and it's not that that bad anyway.  I was 0 retract time, 500 total hours, my insurance started at $3300 it ends up like $2800 now that I have 25 hours in it.  My Cessna 140 with half the hull value was $1200.   Annual went from $1000 on the C140 to $2500 for the base annual.  So really the only potential for more cost over the Cessna would be if I had a repair on the landing gear or the CS prop... As both planes might need carb/injection work, both planes could have an attitude indicator fail, both planes could need a new alternator/generator, etc... 

So, sure with more "stuff" on board, more to break potentially, but if you aren't going for a doggedly simple plane like my old 140 which obviously you aren't if you are going to use it for family trips, there's just not that much more potential for repair costs.  I love the idea of my manual gear as that keeps things very simple there, so I think my manual gear a flaps are an advantage, from my perspective- less motors and switches....

So yea its going to be a bit more for insurance and annual than a fixed pitch fixed gear glorified trainer, but if you are financially secure enough that the fixed gear fixed prop wasn't the absolute most you could possibly afford, I don't think its going to be night and day...  I'm new into the Mooney so I could be very wrong, but from what I'm seeing and studied I don't believe I am.  I really think you are making a reasoned decision to go this route as long as you get some good estimates now what insurance and base annual will run and other basic costs and are comfortable with the figure- go buy your mooney

You will hear a lot of myths about these birds too, most are myths... The one that sticks out to me is they are a pain to slow down and pain to land.  I find when I pull the throttle back and raise my pitch it slows down, when I'm on final it's about like a chickenhawk to land- just about 10mph faster is all.  I think the hard to land reputation comes from folks flying sloppy and 80mph on final ends up 85-95mph- nope- peg your airspeed and it lands like any other plane.  I'm a rookie and usually make the first turn off without torching my brakes... Sure at a decent altitude ya have to plan your approach a bit more, and I've blown it, but it wasn't anything that one 360 didn't cure- learned a good lesson and move on as a better pilot for it... 

I also don't see prices going down on birds, save momentarily for a recession, but when we even look at those with cold hard logic- they last between a year to two, but these birds aren't being replaced by new ones at the rate we bend em or poorly taken care of ones corrode out... So I think buying your last plane first is not a bad idea, and that doesn't have to be 100% literally true as in ya can't ever upgrade, but I don't think I'd buy a Piper 4 place then the Mooney, if I could afford it, I'd just buy the mooney and be set for more years even if its not forever... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much for this very detailed response.  A lot of great stuff in there and I really appreciate it!

[Devin]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Well said.

One more thing/myth/common thought for the OP… imo, fuel isn’t a big enough expense to really worry about.  I fly ~80-100 hours per year and use ~10gph.  100ll costs ~$6.50 where I live, so ~$6850/year.  If I averaged 13gph (impossible in a 200hp engine if you lean at all), that would be $7600.  So ~$800 different for a huge burn difference.  $800 is nothing in airplane language.  Heck if you find cheaper fuel and pay ~$5.80, then you just saved the $800.  Yes, fuel is expensive, but I spend $20k per year all in on my F.  Small changes in fuel efficiency/cost are nothing.

But I acknowledge that your going to fly more than me, however I still think it will be a small percentage of your total cost.

Great perspective on the fuel.  I hadn't thought if that way.  Thank you

[Devin]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

The way I learnt math, that's almost dead on one quarter, and your lower actual expenses are less than one quarter of the total. 

haha

[Devin]

1 hour ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

The condition of the specific plane you buy likely has the biggest impact on what it costs to operate.   A warrior that was badly neglected may be much more expensive to operate than a very nicely maintained Mooney.  

Great point.  Thank you