Interior lights and speaker

[Hank]

5 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I would also add many newer flight decks like the G1000 require a speaker as a back up for the aural warnings such as stall and gear.

Stall and gear warnings in my Mooney are two separate Sonalerts in the ceiling. Don't think they go through the speaker or headsets. 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Stall and gear warnings in my Mooney are two separate Sonalerts in the ceiling. Don't think they go through the speaker or headsets. 

Does you airplane have a G1000?

And you said you have a PS8000. Are you asserting a speaker is not required?

[MikeOH]

27 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Does you airplane have a G1000?

And you said you have a PS8000. Are you asserting a speaker is not required?

Uh, Hank was crystal clear that he has Sonalerts for gear and stall; if we believe you that the G1000 does NOT, then it is reasonable to conclude Hank does NOT have a G1000.

No one that I've seen has been debating if a speaker is required.  Did I miss that post(s)?

YOU originally claimed that a single shorted headphone jack would take out ALL headphones, hence the need for a speaker.  It's been pretty well proven (cite from the PS8000 manual) that is NOT true for any reasonably modern audio panel (of which Hank has one with the PS8000); a single headphone jack short will NOT disable the others.

I'm not sure what you are continuing to debate??

[GeeBee]

Not all audio panels are "modern" and as EricJ pointed out, even a "modern audio panel" can be defeated. If I learned one thing from all my years flying ultra modern aircraft including Boeing and Airbus, don't count your failure modalities before they hatch.

\

 

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

YOU originally claimed that a single shorted headphone jack would take out ALL headphones, hence the need for a speaker.  It's been pretty well proven (cite from the PS8000 manual) that is NOT true for any reasonably modern audio panel (of which Hank has one with the PS8000); a single headphone jack short will NOT disable the others.

Then why is a speaker required? An extra headset would defeat the modality EricJ spoke about.

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

Uh, Hank was crystal clear that he has Sonalerts for gear and stall; if we believe you that the G1000 does NOT, then it is reasonable to conclude Hank does NOT have a G1000.

I did not say the G1000 did not have Sonalerts. Do you have a quote?

[MikeOH]

7 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Then why is a speaker required? An extra headset would defeat the modality EricJ spoke about.

Beats me.  Yes, that's the point of redundant channels; loss of one does not take out the other.

Again, no one, including myself, has been debating the speaker!  This all started when you claimed a shorted jack took out ALL the headphones.

[MikeOH]

10 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I did not say the G1000 did not have Sonalerts. Do you have a quote?

So, you're the expert, you tell us: does the G1000 drive Sonalerts or the audio panel?

And, let's settle the other point:  @Hank  Do you have a G1000?

[GeeBee]

11 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Beats me.  Yes, that's the point of redundant channels; loss of one does not take out the other.

Again, no one, including myself, has been debating the speaker!  This all started when you claimed a shorted jack took out ALL the headphones.

I did not "claim". It did happen because I did not have a "modern audio panel". In fact, I had no audio panel at all. Now please this is the second time you are inserting words into my mouth, I ask you to carefully read what I wrote and here is what I wrote:

"You only need to be NORDO once because of a jack short to realize the value of a speaker. Because with a jack short, even an extra headset won't bail you out, nor will jacking into another jack, because they are all on the same circuit. Had one in my PA-18. Not only are you NORDO, you can't communicate with your passengers ."

For the record here is a picture of the panel:

 

[GeeBee]

12 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

So, you're the expert, you tell us: does the G1000 drive Sonalerts or the audio panel?

And, let's settle the other point:  @Hank  Do you have a G1000?

Neither. The stall warning or gear warning activate two individual warnings. One is the Sonalerts activated by switch contact, (yes there are two of them, one for stall, one for gear) which is very hard to hear with a noise canceling headset and the other is an aural warning generated by the G1000 to one of two speakers (yes there are two, one for the aural one for the comm) as well as through the headsets.

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, GeeBee said:

I did not "claim". It did happen because I did not have a "modern audio panel". In fact, I had no audio panel at all. Now please this is the second time you are inserting words into my mouth, I ask you to carefully read what I wrote and here is what I wrote:

"You only need to be NORDO once because of a jack short to realize the value of a speaker. Because with a jack short, even an extra headset won't bail you out, nor will jacking into another jack, because they are all on the same circuit. Had one in my PA-18. Not only are you NORDO, you can't communicate with your passengers ."

For the record here is a picture of the panel:

 

Your quoted section is where you 'claimed' ("You only need to be NORDO once...) a shorted jack would take out all the other headphones.  You did NOT qualify that statement with the knowledge you just provided: namely, that your plane "had no audio panel at all."!!  Of course that scenario is fatal to all headsets!

The debate proceeded from there with you questioning planes WITH audio panels until a cite from a manual was given.  Your declarative statement for your no audio panel extended your failure scenario to other aircraft; that's the 'claim' that I refer to.  I never doubted what happened to you.

Go back and read your own quoted text.  Viewed objectively you make an all encompassing statement that 'with a jack short'  you lose everything 'because they are all on the same circuit.'  Knowing that you had NO audio panel is a pretty critical piece of originally missing information!  And, given that, it shouldn't be a stretch to understand that systems WITH an audio panel likely do not suffer from that complete failure mode.

 

[GeeBee]

4 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Your quoted section is where you 'claimed' ("You only need to be NORDO once...) a shorted jack would take out all the other headphones.  You did NOT qualify that statement with the knowledge you just provided: namely, that your plane "had no audio panel at all."!!  Of course that scenario is fatal to all headsets!

The debate proceeded from there with you questioning planes WITH audio panels until a cite from a manual was given.  Your declarative statement for your no audio panel extended your failure scenario to other aircraft; that's the 'claim' that I refer to.  I never doubted what happened to you.

Go back and read your own quoted text.  Viewed objectively you make an all encompassing statement that 'with a jack short'  you lose everything 'because they are all on the same circuit.'  Knowing that you had NO audio panel is a pretty critical piece of originally missing information!  And, given that, it shouldn't be a stretch to understand that systems WITH an audio panel likely do not suffer from that complete failure mode.

 

But again, if you look closely I had a PS1000 intercom which is selectable. That intercom system will not overcome a shorted jack. In fact it may make the situation worse for your  radio com. But that said, we all agree now that a speaker is a good idea, regardless of the failure modality?

 

 

[MikeOH]

9 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Neither. The stall warning or gear warning activate two individual warnings. One is the Sonalerts activated by switch contact, (yes there are two of them, one for stall, one for gear) which is very hard to hear with a noise canceling headset and the other is an aural warning generated by the G1000 to one of two speakers (yes there are two, one for the aural one for the comm) as well as through the headsets.

So, the normal hard-wired Sonalerts are still present even with a G1000.  That's what I would have thought; seemed doubtful that they would be removed upon installation of a G1000.

It became confusing when you asked if Hank had a G1000.  Not sure why that question was relevant after he pointed out that the Sonalerts were completely independent of the audio system??

[MikeOH]

6 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

But again, if you look closely I had a PS1000 intercom which is selectable. That intercom system will not overcome a shorted jack. In fact it may make the situation worse for your  radio com. But that said, we all agree now that a speaker is a good idea, regardless of the failure modality?

 

 

Absolutely agree having a speaker is another back up; you can't have too many of those

Not sure I understand how the PS1000 intercom was wired such that the jack short kills all?  I thought even the PS1000 had separate headphone channels.  But, that is an early system so that might not be the case.

[GeeBee]

9 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Absolutely agree having a speaker is another back up; you can't have too many of those

Not sure I understand how the PS1000 intercom was wired such that the jack short kills all?  I thought even the PS1000 had separate headphone channels.  But, that is an early system so that might not be the case.

I could not tell you but I will tell you the PS1000 I called the POS1000 because even a weak battery ground would disable it. Guys in the PA-18 community know to regularly clean the battery ground cable to keep it working properly.

[wombat]

I will assert that you *CAN* have too many backups.   

The utility to you vs. the cost (in terms of dollar cost, weight, volume, maintenance, additional labor to preflight, mental load to manage, and so on) and legal requirements such as FAA regulations and certification requirements which drive install manuals determine if a given backup is a good idea for you.

 

I'll illustrate this with a joke....

A Cessna 152 taxis up to the hold short line and calls the tower...

"Tower, Cessna 12345 holding short of runway 37, ready to take off and I'm declaring an emergency."

"Cessna 12345, Tower.....   Why in the world would you say you are ready to take off and also declare an emergency?"

"Well, I'm down to a single engine, all the rest of my crew is gone, I've got less than 1,000 pounds of fuel, automatic fire suppression systems are inop, no redundant control routing, and my climb performance is less than 2,000 feet per minute.    If that's not an emergency, I don't know what is!"

 

So in my opinion what is a 'required' redundancy depends on the operation, conditions, and the person/persons conducting the operation.

[Echo]

Mooney5, Look whatyou started, lol  

[GeeBee]

14 hours ago, wombat said:

I will assert that you *CAN* have too many backups.   

The utility to you vs. the cost (in terms of dollar cost, weight, volume, maintenance, additional labor to preflight, mental load to manage, and so on) and legal requirements such as FAA regulations and certification requirements which drive install manuals determine if a given backup is a good idea for you.

 

I'll illustrate this with a joke....

A Cessna 152 taxis up to the hold short line and calls the tower...

"Tower, Cessna 12345 holding short of runway 37, ready to take off and I'm declaring an emergency."

"Cessna 12345, Tower.....   Why in the world would you say you are ready to take off and also declare an emergency?"

"Well, I'm down to a single engine, all the rest of my crew is gone, I've got less than 1,000 pounds of fuel, automatic fire suppression systems are inop, no redundant control routing, and my climb performance is less than 2,000 feet per minute.    If that's not an emergency, I don't know what is!"

 

So in my opinion what is a 'required' redundancy depends on the operation, conditions, and the person/persons conducting the operation.

This is certainly true, but the subject here is a 4 inch speaker, the weight of which is a rounding error on the W&B of a two place airplane.

[wombat]

Yes, it is.   A speaker here, a backup battery and second alternator, and a spare alternator and magneto in the luggage area, plus a tire and a tube of course.  And an oil filter and a few quarts of oil.  And a jack, and some wrenches.  Oh, and a sleeping bag, and food.    And don't forget water!  And something to start fires with!  And an axe and a knife, and signal mirror, and some fishing line and hooks! and some pills for pain.  And an extra headset.  And tiedowns. And batteries for your headset.   Don't forget a flashlight! Oh, a funnel for the oil.  And a fire extinguisher, can't forget that one!    A pulse oximeter!   A mask for the O2 in case I need to go over 18,000'.   Life jacket.  Personal Locator Beacon with two-way messaging....   Do we have a backup attitude indicator yet?    What about a second GPS?   Second nav/com radio?  Plus a handheld.   The headset adapter for the handheld radio.   Did you get one of the emergency portable O2 bottles just in case yet?  Toss that in.    Don't forget to check all the batteries in all the things before you go fly.  And the pressure levels in the fire extinguisher and emergency O2, and the expiration dates on the pills, food, and water.

 

Each and every one of these things are items that I've talked to pilots and they will not go flying without that in the plane with them.    But nobody (yet) that I've talked to has all of them at once.   If I had more time and motivation, I could keep adding more stuff to the list until it's truly unwieldy.  

My point on all of this is that each of us as owners/pilots should make informed decisions on each of these items, considering the (not just dollar) cost vs. the benefit that it provides for each person's individual risk tolerance and expected flight path, with the FAA regulations as an absolute minimum standard.

Personally, I choose to include a fire extinguisher on all flights despite it's dubious effectiveness at potential applications and not-absolutely-trivial weight, and I choose not to carry a spare tire, tube, alternator or magneto.

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, wombat said:

Yes, it is.   A speaker here, a backup battery and second alternator, and a spare alternator and magneto in the luggage area, plus a tire and a tube of course.  And an oil filter and a few quarts of oil.  And a jack, and some wrenches.  Oh, and a sleeping bag, and food.    And don't forget water!  And something to start fires with!  And an axe and a knife, and signal mirror, and some fishing line and hooks! and some pills for pain.  And an extra headset.  And tiedowns. And batteries for your headset.   Don't forget a flashlight! Oh, a funnel for the oil.  And a fire extinguisher, can't forget that one!    A pulse oximeter!   A mask for the O2 in case I need to go over 18,000'.   Life jacket.  Personal Locator Beacon with two-way messaging....   Do we have a backup attitude indicator yet?    What about a second GPS?   Second nav/com radio?  Plus a handheld.   The headset adapter for the handheld radio.   Did you get one of the emergency portable O2 bottles just in case yet?  Toss that in.    Don't forget to check all the batteries in all the things before you go fly.  And the pressure levels in the fire extinguisher and emergency O2, and the expiration dates on the pills, food, and water.

You forgot the survival knife, personal protection pistol and required-in-some-areas bear rifle.

[wombat]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

You forgot the survival knife, personal protection pistol and required-in-some-areas bear rifle.

And the plane's cover!  (Since you mentioned that in another thread.)    

[GeeBee]

There is often a fundamental misunderstanding of back up. 

What is the chance of engine failure in the modern light twin? Answer. Twice as much as your Mooney.

Why the requirement for twin engine airliners then? Answer. Because they are FAR 25 airplanes which require the ability to accelerate to V1, loose the engine, accelerate to rotation speed, lift off, accelerate to V2, then accelerate to Vyclean. They are both over-powered (all engines) and over controlled in the yaw mode. It is why they are modern marvels of aeronautical engineering, being able to climb easily into the 40's and sometimes the 50's. 

The FAR 23 twin on the other hand has no requirement to accelerate from Vmc to Vyse, in fact there is no requirement to have a positive rate of climb on one engine under any circumstances, even sea level. It is in a sense, a single engine airplane with its power plants divided. The beauty of an FAR 23 airplane is if the airplane is above Vyse and the pilot is properly trained, it will get you to a runway and all engine the performance is superior. Compare a Baron to a Bonanza 36. Or a Seminole to a Lance. Pretty much same fuselage. Better performance.

This is why the accident rate of the Pilatus PC-12 is less than the King Air despite both having the same ultra reliable PT-6 engine.

The speaker is a back up. It detracts little from the reliability of the airplane and the weight penalty is nil. Its fitment risks little unlike the second engine on an FAR 23 twin.

[wombat]

@GeeBee You are clearly missing the point here.

 

For every backup or safety system there is some amount of cost and there is some amount of benefit. Regarding the speaker specifically, the weight penalty is not 'nil'.  It's small, but not 'nil'.   For that small penalty it provides some amount of additional functionality.  

 

The FAA does not mandate speakers in certified aircraft.  It doesn't even mandate radios or an electrical system.  It does mandate that if you install equipment, you do so in accordance with the approved installation manual, and in the case of the PS Engineering PS8000 mentioned above, the manufacturer has chosen to require a speaker.  But if you install a Flightcom IIsx instead (a much less capable intercom system) you will not need a speaker. For the PS8000, the pilot headset is not connected in parallel with the passenger headsets (See page 3.4 of the install manual) therefore a short in the passenger headsets will not disable the pilot headset.   The reverse is then also true.  Why they chose to require a speaker is not stated but it is not because a short in one headset wiring will disable all headsets.

 

You personally are welcome to require that all aircraft you fly in have speakers for any logical or illogical reason that you desire. The FAA does not mandate them and while some equipment manufacturers do, this is not universal.   I don't know what other hardware Mooney5 has in their airplane, so I can't make any statements about if there is a speaker requirement. 

 

The FAA provides rules that require some backups or safety systems for certified aircraft.   e.g. dual ignition systems.  They provide different rules for different types of operations or different types of aircraft.   e.g. ditching emergency exits or as you pointed out, performance requirements for single engine operations in transport category airplanes.

For backup or safety systems that are not required by the FAA it's up to each pilot, owner, or operator to determine if the benefit outweighs the cost or not.   

[GeeBee]

Ooooh, 8 oz of weight. Not even enough to require a revised W&B. Lot of down side there.

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Visaton/R-10-SC-8-ohm?qs=juaAHce7PkUe7XS6Bogo3A%3D%3D&mgh=1

[wombat]

@GeeBeeDo you have a point here?