My IA is retiring

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

So if during the 3 hour visit, the expat spent an hour with the doctor and even if the entire $12.50 went to the doctor (forget about the cost of the meds and overhead), then the doctor at most could earn $12.50/hour.  That's $25k/year. He could make more flipping hamburgers at McD's nowadays in the US. 

Now maybe the cost of living is lower and the pace of life is slower there so perhaps that would be a decent income there.  However, if this was actually a doctor trained in modern medicine (maybe the expat was unwittingly just being treated by a tech in a white coat that got some info off of the internet) then the doctor could leave Thailand and come to the US making 10 times more money.  That is exactly why properly trained physicians are leaving every country and coming here. 

Many Thai doctors have US training.  It is a medical tourism destination due to high quality, low cost medical treatment.

No, he did not spend the full 3 hours with the doc.  That part was a local joke.

But cost of living is MUCH lower.  The same expat stated that their 2 bedroom, furnished condo, in a nice location cost $34K.  Building has gym, massage place, small store, an at least one restaurant.  He stated they eat our for most meals, maybe cook for 2 per week.  They have a scooter to get around.  Total living costs (outside of buying the condo) is running $900 per month for 2 people.

Thailand requires that you show that you have sufficient means to not be a drag on their economy to get a long term visa.  At the time of the article, that was showing a minimum income of $25K per year.  Or a bank account with $30K in deposits (only required when you obtain or renew your visa, in between, it is not required to be maintained).

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Many Thai doctors have US training.  It is a medical tourism destination due to high quality, low cost medical treatment.

No, he did not spend the full 3 hours with the doc.  That part was a local joke.

But cost of living is MUCH lower.  The same expat stated that their 2 bedroom, furnished condo, in a nice location cost $34K.  Building has gym, massage place, small store, an at least one restaurant.  He stated they eat our for most meals, maybe cook for 2 per week.  They have a scooter to get around.  Total living costs (outside of buying the condo) is running $900 per month for 2 people.

Thailand requires that you show that you have sufficient means to not be a drag on their economy to get a long term visa.  At the time of the article, that was showing a minimum income of $25K per year.  Or a bank account with $30K in deposits (only required when you obtain or renew your visa, in between, it is not required to be maintained).

But probably no GA flying?

[Pinecone]

Probably not.  When I was looking at spending a few low cost years there, I was not actively flying, so that was not a factor.

[A64Pilot]

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Understanding fully, there are approximately two high school A&P programmes in the US.  You are a graduate of one.  I asked you to clarify that upon graduation with your new A&P licence that you could then work on and sign out your own work. 

If this is correct, I find it interesting and surprising that a newly minted A&P right out of a high school program could go right to work on real flying airplanes that have to carry people without some real on the job training and supervision.

 

As far as I know, your an A&P or your not, there is no provisional, restricted etc A&P. The system is supposedly set up so that the supervision, training and experience is gained prior to receiving the Certificate.

The lack of real world experience is what I find lacking in the schools, the schools that I’m familiar with what little actual hands on is with training aids, not actual aircraft, or there may be an unairworthy aircraft or two, but they are often not really very representative of operational aircraft.

Coming from the Military I find the whole system “Wonky” Military you were never allowed to inspect / sign off your own work, Always, even for minor things like panel installation an inspector inspected and signed off the work. Once you completed training and got to your unit everyone knew you had to be watched closely, and some we made sure didn’t do any actual aircraft work, we found them other jobs, but that was maybe 1 in 20.

Yeah I know that system would kill one person operations, but I still feel strange with no one inspecting my work

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

As far as I know, your an A&P or your not, there is no provisional, restricted etc A&P. The system is supposedly set up so that the supervision, training and experience is gained prior to receiving the Certificate.

The lack of real world experience is what I find lacking in the schools, the schools that I’m familiar with what little actual hands on is with training aids, not actual aircraft, or there may be an unairworthy aircraft or two, but they are often not really very representative of operational aircraft.

Coming from the Military I find the whole system “Wonky” Military you were never allowed to inspect / sign off your own work, Always, even for minor things like panel installation an inspector inspected and signed off the work. Once you completed training and got to your unit everyone knew you had to be watched closely, and some we made sure didn’t do any actual aircraft work, we found them other jobs, but that was maybe 1 in 20.

Yeah I know that system would kill one person operations, but I still feel strange with no one inspecting my work

Did you actually have any experience with an A&P school? If you did your training through the military how could you have any experience to comment as such?

In the school I graduated from after 2.5 years of full time training, we had two separate locations. One was large hangar at the airport with over 6-7 complete aircraft ranging from a C150 to a Duke Twin cabin class aircraft and several engines on test stands including a large DC-3 size radial. At the airport hangar we learned to do annuals, diagnose engine and airframe issues, hand prop the big radial and even taxi an aircraft. At the campus we had couple dozen complete engines that enabled us to completely disassemble, inspect/measure, report beyond limit parts and then re-assemble - mine was a Lyc TIO-540. We also had test stands to test Magnetos after we rebuilt them, and test alternators after rebuilding them. We also learned how to do several NDT methods including magnetic particle inspection of crankshafts, and magnaflux penetrant inspection. We even had a large paint booth for the refinishing class. Frankly one couldn't get as good "real world experience" nor as diverse without working at either a very large or several different repair stations. Yet the focus was entirely on education with 3 hours of practical hands on work for every hour in the class room. 

I can only remark on the one school I attended but all the schools follow the same part 147 regulations for required training so I doubt mine was atypical. I'll add about 1/3 of the students came form the local military, sponsored by the them, because the only equipment the military had to train on was their current flying inventory.  

Edited May 29, 2023 by kortopates

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Did you actually have any experience with an A&P school? If you did your training through the military how could you have any experience to comment as such?

As one of only two GA aircraft manufacturers in Georgia, I was pretty heavily involved with the A&P school in Americus Ga. We had a difficult time finding qualified people to manufacture aircraft. I “Cherry picked” quite a few of their graduates, I was often at the school.

https://www.southgatech.edu/academics/all-programs/aviation-maintenance-technology/

There are three GA manufacturers in Georgia if you count Gulfstream, I should I guess.

After he Retired the Dean of the school came to work for me at Thrush, we primarily used him to travel to different countries assisting them with setting up their maintenance programs. He was my source of who to offer a job to of his Graduates

Sadly in 2019 he and another good friend of mine lost their lives in an SR-22 traveling to Oshkosh

His name was Mike Cochran

 

[A64Pilot]

What Military sent Soldiers or Airmen to a civilian A&P school?

National Guard?

[kortopates]

What Military sent Soldiers or Airmen to a civilian A&P school?
National Guard?

It was the Naval Air Station at North Island, but the students were contracted civilians - not actually military, but sponsored by the base.

Sorry about your lost friends. I’ve lost several over the years too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[A64Pilot]

Civilians, Contractors work for a Corporation, the Corporation has the Military contract. May not seem relevant but the person has zip nothing to do with the Military. So I’m fairly certain the contractor sent those people to your school.

For example 30 days before my Retirement I went to work at the Army’s Technical Testing Center as a Contract Test Pilot.

I was on terminal leave.

But I didn’t work for the Army, I was a Dyncorp employee, and an Aerospace worker and Machinist Union member

All the aircraft maintenance at Ft Rucker was performed by Civilians, no Soldiers, it was a 5,000 man contract. Now as you might imagine a pretty significant number of the maintainers were ex service members that had the MOS for the job they were working

[MB65E]

On 5/28/2023 at 8:38 AM, Sixstring2k said:

You are not misunderstanding, now they have an annex in jfk where they work on a 727 that was donated to gain more  “real world” experience. They used to have a apprenticeship with tower air when you had you A/P but the airline went out of business. 

https://www.aviationhs.net/ and https://www.aviationhs.net/aviation_high_schools_federal_aviation_administration_program_regulations_and_information

but I think Aviation high school is one of maybe 2 in the USA that still teach the A/P license curriculum at a high school level, they have to keep a certain level of total people passing the test per grade at a certain passing grade per student average if I remember to able to keep there certification. I can’t remember if the other high school is still around. 
 

The majors spend all the time in area schools just recruiting, AV is no exception. 
My first job right out of high school was working for an avionics company working of onboard entertainment system for Singapore airlines and American Airlines. 

In IL, We had a HS program too that was affiliated with a vocational school near by. Jr. and Senior year that’s what I did. 31 students JR year. Myself and another Lady were the only ones who passed the O&P. We had approvals for General and Powerplant. Took the college credits earned (50)  to Southern IL and finished the airframe there. That summer prior to Freshmen year college I was able to sign off Powerplant related tasks with out working in a shop. Had several friends with airplanes.. Program now defunked the following year due to lack of passing grades. Can’t curve the O&P tests! Good news was I completed a 4 year degree in 2y.
-Matt

[alextstone]

On 5/24/2023 at 5:47 AM, M20Doc said:

$200 seems a bargain compared to my lawyer and my dentist rates.  

Hey Hey, now, I'm a dentist...how do you think I can (barely) afford flying? ;-)

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

Did you actually have any experience with an A&P school? If you did your training through the military how could you have any experience to comment as such?

In the school I graduated from after 2.5 years of full time training, we had two separate locations. One was large hangar at the airport with over 6-7 complete aircraft ranging from a C150 to a Duke Twin cabin class aircraft and several engines on test stands including a large DC-3 size radial. At the airport hangar we learned to do annuals, diagnose engine and airframe issues, hand prop the big radial and even taxi an aircraft. At the campus we had couple dozen complete engines that enabled us to completely disassemble, inspect/measure, report beyond limit parts and then re-assemble - mine was a Lyc TIO-540. We also had test stands to test Magnetos after we rebuilt them, and test alternators after rebuilding them. We also learned how to do several NDT methods including magnetic particle inspection of crankshafts, and magnaflux penetrant inspection. We even had a large paint booth for the refinishing class. Frankly one couldn't get as good "real world experience" nor as diverse without working at either a very large or several different repair stations. Yet the focus was entirely on education with 3 hours of practical hands on work for every hour in the class room. 

I can only remark on the one school I attended but all the schools follow the same part 147 regulations for required training so I doubt mine was atypical. I'll add about 1/3 of the students came form the local military, sponsored by the them, because the only equipment the military had to train on was their current flying inventory.  

My school experience was similar.   We did wood and fabric, composite, and sheet metal construction and repair, disassembled and re-assembled a PT-6 including a hot section inspection, had at least 14 complete aircraft of widely varied types (9 singles, two light twins, three jets) and two helicopters.  Four of the airplanes were pressurized, one had an air cycle machine.  We also had at least a dozen partial carcases of airplanes that were used a lot, plus a ton of other training aids (e.g., full operational mockups for janitrol heaters, charging systems, hydraulic systems, fuel systems, etc., etc.)., plus running engine test stands for multiple turbine and piston engines.  Like yours, we had magneto dynos as well as dyno stands for running and testing generators and alternators, etc.   When we were done with school we'd touched examples of pretty much everything.   I can't imagine an apprenticeship in a practical shop covering nearly as much, or at least not nearly as thoroughly. 

Like yours, we had two closely-located facilities within walking distance of each other; one with the classrooms and a large lab area with composite shop, paint booth, hangar area with metal shop, turbine and recip engine shops, welding shop, NDI facilities, several airplanes, etc., and then a large hangar on the flight line with nine airplanes inside and one outside.  We ran all of the aircraft that were in the hangar except the jets, and myself and another classmate got to put out an engine fire on our C340 during a ground run.    My school experience was very good.   Highly recommended.

I went to the school because I wanted half a chance of knowing what I was doing when I got done.  This was already with an advanced engineering degree and several decades of engineering experience as well as decades of previous wrenching on airplanes, cars, trucks, race cars, etc., etc.  My recommendation to anyone wanting an A&P is to go to a school, as the depth and breadth of your training will likely be far better than working an apprenticeship in a shop without so much breadth.

I recently helped a friend who has owned a ton of different airplanes, and flies everything up through MU-2s and Lears, get his A&P via experience signed off by various A&P/IAs he's known for years.   He's wrenched on his own airplanes and experimentals for ages.   I helped him study for O&Ps, since he tested at the school I went to with the same DME I had.   There are many routes to getting an A&P.   I had OJT logbooks from when I wrenched on airplanes for many years as a teen lineboy, so the signed-off-experience route was also an option for me.   People who get their A&P that way can also immediately sign off all the same stuff that any other A&P can, although FAR 65.81 is more likely to apply there.   A Part 147 school graduate is largely immune from 65.81 because the curricula are developed to cover pretty much everything that the FAA cares about.   By the time you're done, you've hit essentially all of it, by design.

I'd highly recommend a school as an avenue to get an A&P.

And, yes, having experience still matters, just like it does with a doctor, or a lawyer or any other profession.   If you get in an accident and get treated by a doctor, it might be a new doctor.   He'll still be a doctor.   You know what they call the MD who graduates at the bottom of his class?  "Doctor".  

[Sixstring2k]

On 5/28/2023 at 6:25 PM, M20Doc said:

Understanding fully, there are approximately two high school A&P programmes in the US.  You are a graduate of one.  I asked you to clarify that upon graduation with your new A&P licence that you could then work on and sign out your own work. 

If this is correct, I find it interesting and surprising that a newly minted A&P right out of a high school program could go right to work on real flying airplanes that have to carry people without some real on the job training and supervision.

 

Well that’s my story, once I had the license out I went but was placed along with more experience guys to watch and learn and after a while I was on my own. The training on the independent fleets helps a ton. How do they do it in Canada once you have your version of the A/P?

[A64Pilot]

One thing I should throw out here is that an A&P requires significant education or OJT and several tests.

To be an aircraft manufacturer whether working at a factory manufacturing Type Certificated aircraft or building say an RV, there are no requirements at all, that’s right zero, none at all.

I’d say on average of the 80 or so people actual building the aircraft I had 2 or 3 A&P’s.

That was in the entire factory, there were zero A&P’s in Quality Control and I was the only Corporate officer that had one. 

An A&P is actually a pretty highly skilled person, and rarer than you might suppose