Landing an airliner

[Brandt]

I assume a Cirrus pilot would turn the jet into a lawn dart while looking for the parachute lever….

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2023/05/20/passengers-try-landing-plane-flight-simulator/?utm_campaign=wp_news_alert_revere_trending_now&utm_medium=email&utm_source=alert&location=alert

[Pinecone]

There are some You Tube videos of a Brit doing the same sort of test.

He had them "fly" using the autopilot and also trying to hand fly.  It was interesting.

I got a chance to by the MD-90 sim for a major carrier.  I was able to take off, fly around and land while hand flying.   But in real life, I would let the autopilot fly, if posible.

[GeeBee]

If you can hand land an MD you can land any of them. Best thing in a total incapacitation situation is to leave it on autopilot, fly it down and over to an ILS,  to lock it up on an ILS and let it auto land with autobraking. 

[Hank]

  On 5/21/2023 at 12:03 PM, GeeBee said:

If you can hand land an MD you can land any of them. Best thing in a total incapacitation situation is to leave it on autopilot, fly it down and over to an ILS,  to lock it up on an ILS and let it auto land with autobraking. 

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I would have no idea how to set up the automation to do any of that . . . .

[Pinecone]

  On 5/21/2023 at 2:02 PM, Hank said:

I would have no idea how to set up the automation to do any of that . . . .

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That is what the radio is for.   Call for help, and hopefully they can get some to talk you through it.

[GeeBee]

  On 5/21/2023 at 2:39 PM, Pinecone said:

That is what the radio is for.   Call for help, and hopefully they can get some to talk you through it.

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That's it. I could talk you through an auto land easy.

 

[MikeOH]

  On 5/21/2023 at 2:39 PM, Pinecone said:

That is what the radio is for.   Call for help, and hopefully they can get some to talk you through it.

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I'm not sure I'd know how to run the radios!

[Mooneymite]

  On 5/21/2023 at 4:06 PM, MikeOH said:

I'm not sure I'd know how to run the radios!

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No problem...just ask your lead flight attendant.  They know everything.

[RobertGary1]

  On 5/21/2023 at 12:03 PM, GeeBee said:

If you can hand land an MD you can land any of them. Best thing in a total incapacitation situation is to leave it on autopilot, fly it down and over to an ILS,  to lock it up on an ILS and let it auto land with autobraking. 

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Autoland isn’t a given. Many airlines don’t even buy in.  None of Southwest’s planes have it. 

[A64Pilot]

IF Wx was severe clear I think I could get one down to where it was survivable anyway and inside of the airport fence.

I’m comfortable IFR, but would think I’d be like a pig looking at a wrist watch with what I assume are MPD’s in a modern airliner and that just might eat my lunch.

I’m assuming hand flying.

If we are talking programming an autopilot to auto land, well that’s not really flying is it? That’s systems management?

[Mooneymite]

  On 5/21/2023 at 5:47 PM, RobertGary1 said:

Autoland isn’t a given. Many airlines don’t even buy in.  None of Southwest’s planes have it. 

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Ha!  This reminds me when half the 727 fleet had autoland and the other half did not, the (allegedly) famous logbook write up/sign off seen more than once.

Pilot write up:  Autoland lands hard.

Maintenance sign off:  Autoland not installed.

This would lead one to believe that landing off of a coupled ILS is survivable even without autoland.   

Edited May 21, 2023 by Mooneymite

[PeteMc]

  On 5/21/2023 at 2:39 PM, Pinecone said:

That is what the radio is for.   Call for help, and hopefully they can get some to talk you through it.

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Problem is, most pax would not have a clue how to work the radio.  And as I understand it, the test is for pax that do NOT have any kind of aviation background.  So no GA pilots are included or probably even frequent fliers in GA planes.  The test (at least the one I read about a few months ago) was to test people that have no clue about how planes work, they just sit in the back and ride along.

 

[GeeBee]

  On 5/21/2023 at 5:47 PM, RobertGary1 said:

Autoland isn’t a given. Many airlines don’t even buy in.  None of Southwest’s planes have it. 

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No, SWA airplanes have auto land they are just not authorized to use it in favor of HUD flown approach. The airplane will do it, if you engage it. We had a similar thing at Western. We could not engage the LNAV button......but it would work if you did it.

 

[RobertGary1]

  On 5/22/2023 at 12:37 AM, GeeBee said:

No, SWA airplanes have auto land they are just not authorized to use it in favor of HUD flown approach. The airplane will do it, if you engage it. We had a similar thing at Western. We could not engage the LNAV button......but it would work if you did it.

 

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My buddies at southwest say there is a software upgrade fee to pay to Boeing. 

[GeeBee]

I am sure there is to use it. Because to include it in the Ops specs there are manuals to be provided, maintenance training and currency requirements to exercise the equipment. Think about it, do you really think Boeing puts different boxes in a SWA plane? Do you think SWA wants to buy a neutered airplane it cannot sell to other operations when it is ready to dispose of it? There are all sorts of things that are available but not used. Just like you can change the thrust on a 737NG from 26K to 28K with one turn of the screwdriver, for a price. We changed the gross weight of our B767's from 363,000 to 409,000 just by writing a check.

 

 

[BloodRedSkies]

My last FO came from Southwest and I just asked him and he said SW does NOT have Autoland. I would have lost a bet. We do on our 737s and we have the HUD. I would think a private pilot could get a 737 to a runway. It won't be pretty and the plane might be totalled, then again that's normal for other countries airlines like Lion Air. 

[Pinecone]

  On 5/22/2023 at 12:24 AM, PeteMc said:

Problem is, most pax would not have a clue how to work the radio.  And as I understand it, the test is for pax that do NOT have any kind of aviation background.  So no GA pilots are included or probably even frequent fliers in GA planes.  The test (at least the one I read about a few months ago) was to test people that have no clue about how planes work, they just sit in the back and ride along.

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The one test had one GA pilot and one former air carrier pilot and at least one sim pilot.

The UK one was people off the street.

But that is the rub, until they have SOME knowledge, they don't know how to use the radio to get help.

[skykrawler]

The 737NG has an approach mode - single channel autopilot - which will pretty much drive it onto the runway.

Autoland is an option because the 737 is a two autopilot airplane each with its own ADIRU.  Auto land requires a third inertial reference unit which is provided by the standby attitude indicator (ESIS).   There are other engineering challenges like power bus isolation between the two autopilots. Then there is the rollout option which tracks the loc/centerline on the ground using the rudder servos.   There's a couple things that have to be set and the system monitored to ensure multichannel is engaged.

[GeeBee]

  On 5/22/2023 at 10:05 AM, skykrawler said:

The 737NG has an approach mode - single channel autopilot - which will pretty much drive it onto the runway.

Autoland is an option because the 737 is a two autopilot airplane each with its own ADIRU.  Auto land requires a third inertial reference unit which is provided by the standby attitude indicator (ESIS).   There are other engineering challenges like power bus isolation between the two autopilots. Then there is the rollout option which tracks the loc/centerline on the ground using the rudder servos.   There's a couple things that have to be set and the system monitored to ensure multichannel is engaged.

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I am aware of that, I was on the initial cadre of pilots on the 737NG. In fact, SWA was the launch customer and I flew a 737NG that was going to SWA at Boeing. What I am saying is it is all there on a SWA airplane, the relays for bus isolation, etc are all present, they are just not authorized to engage the second A/P. If you tuned an ILS and engaged the second A/P, it would auto land. They don't have different airplanes, just different Ops specs.

[65MooneyPilot]

I remember when SWA did not let their pilots use VNAV because the older planes did not have it. The button was removed but the pilots that knew how to use it would use their pen to turn it on. As GeeBee said all the Boeings come out of the factory with the same equipment. The airlines ops specs turn the systems on. 

[GeeBee]

LOL! I remember too they flew their NG's "round dial" for fleet commonality. They had the displays pinned out to display round instruments. Never under estimate SWA's need to do it on the cheap, and it is catching up with them fast, witness last December's debacle. You can also put the Max debacle at their door step too. Boeing needs to know when to say "No" or it will loose its competitive place in narrow bodies.

[C.J.]

  On 5/21/2023 at 6:19 PM, Mooneymite said:

Ha!  This reminds me when half the 727 fleet had autoland and the other half did not, the (allegedly) famous logbook write up/sign off seen more than once.

Pilot write up:  Autoland lands hard.

Maintenance sign off:  Autoland not installed.

This would lead one to believe that landing off of a coupled ILS is survivable even without autoland.   

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I remember seeing that exact write-up/sign-off back in the day on the 737-200. It was always done by those that displaced down from 737-3/400.