Switches

[FlybyNite]

Is there any recommendation for new switches for both function but also esthetically pleasing ? I feel it's time to reorganize the panel with the JPI930 coming,  the removal of a lot of the old gauges, annunciator panel and cleaning up unused CB's from previous removed components it's time to also replace the original klaxon switches with toggles and create a better layout for organization.

Would like to keep the same look though out but with one or two of the switches to be locking switch(fuel boost pump) . I've seen both toggle and rocker switch's in new panels. 

[PT20J]

Keep in mind that most of the Klixon and ETA rocker switches are actually circuit breakers, so if you replace them with just a switch you will have to add circuit breakers and do some rewiring. If you want to keep the circuit breaker function, your choices are more limited.

[ArtVandelay]

I think rockers are more modern, toggle switches are more retro.

[Pinecone]

I wonder if the F-35 has rockers?

My A-10s all had toggles.

 

[kortopates]

I wonder if the F-35 has rockers?
My A-10s all had toggles.
 

Weren’t they built by the lowest bidder? I am betting toggles


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[PT20J]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Weren’t they built by the lowest bidder? I am betting toggles


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Easier to flip toggles with those ugly nomex gloves

[N201MKTurbo]

The toggle switches are still available and not too crazy expensive. The rocker switches are unobtanium. 

[Pinecone]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Weren’t they built by the lowest bidder? I am betting toggles
 

At $110 million per airplane (F-35) they should pure platinum toggles.

[ArtVandelay]

The toggle switches are still available and not too crazy expensive. The rocker switches are unobtanium. 

If redoing panel, OP can used inexpensive switches and inexpensive circuit breakers. I also replaced master switch. I got rid of any specialized $$$ parts: switches/breakers, annunciator, gauges, with 1 exception: the landing gear/override switches.

[N201MKTurbo]

7 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

If redoing panel, OP can used inexpensive switches and inexpensive circuit breakers. I also replaced master switch. I got rid of any specialized $$$ parts: switches/breakers, annunciator, gauges, with 1 exception: the landing gear/override switches.

Are those switches “approved”? Are they standard parts? We’re they built to a MIL spec?  What approval process did you use for those switches?

[ArtVandelay]

Are those switches “approved”? Are they standard parts? We’re they built to a MIL spec?  What approval process did you use for those switches?

My avionics shop installed them, only required a signature. They had to be of a certain amp rating and dust or water resistance IIRC.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Are those switches “approved”? Are they standard parts? We’re they built to a MIL spec?  What approval process did you use for those switches?

I don't believe the original Klixon switches in my plane have TSO or PMA stamps, just P/Ns.  Do the new ones?

[N201MKTurbo]

46 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I don't believe the original Klixon switches in my plane have TSO or PMA stamps, just P/Ns.  Do the new ones?

Yes, but the Klixon are built to a mil spec.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

My avionics shop installed them, only required a signature. They had to be of a certain amp rating and dust or water resistance IIRC.

That's what they said anyway...

[N201MKTurbo]

From 43-13.2B

106. MATERIALS AND WORKMANSHIP. Use materials conforming to an accepted Government or industry standard such as Army/Navy and Air Force/Navy (AN) National Aerospace Standards (NAS), Technical Standard Order (TSO), or Military Specifications (MIL-SPEC). a. Suitability and durability of materials used for parts, the failure of which could adversely affect safety, must: (1) Be established by experience or tests; (2) Meet approved specifications that ensure the strength and other properties, assumed in the design data; and (3) Take into account the effects of environmental conditions, such as temperature and humidity, expected in service. b. Workmanship must be of a high standard

[PT20J]

19 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Yes, but the Klixon are built to a mil spec.

Does it matter? I think the manufacturer has a lot of latitude in specifying parts. Maintainers, not so much. Perhaps @A64Pilot has some insight.

[N201MKTurbo]

12 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

If redoing panel, OP can used inexpensive switches and inexpensive circuit breakers. I also replaced master switch. I got rid of any specialized $$$ parts: switches/breakers, annunciator, gauges, with 1 exception: the landing gear/override switches.

Do you have the part numbers for those switches? Where are the associated circuit breakers?

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, PT20J said:

Does it matter? I think the manufacturer has a lot of latitude in specifying parts. Maintainers, not so much. Perhaps @A64Pilot has some insight.

I'm trying to find out myself. I know a lot of panel modifications are fast and loose with everything. I would just like to know what exactly the approving authority is for these alterations. Those switches are not part of the avionics and they are quite different then the ones specified in the IPC. The specified switches were not unavailable or obsolete. Even under the aging aircraft AC you are only able to substitute parts that are essentially identical. How is this different than saying you want to put on a different propellor then the one specified, just because it looks better?

You say the manufacturer has a lot of latitude in specifying parts, yes they do, but they will need engineering approval for anything they specify. It seems that a DER/DAR analysis would be necessary and then a field approval. You can say these are minor alterations, but the rules say that minor alterations have to be done using approved methods (43-13.1B) and approved parts.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Yes, but the Klixon are built to a mil spec.

so any other MS equivalent switch is legal? 

[ArtVandelay]

Do you have the part numbers for those switches? Where are the associated circuit breakers?

I do not, I assume they’re stamped if I ever need to replace one of them.

Electric parts are standardized, don’t require TSO, mil spec, etc according to Mike Busch. I don’t remember the entire list, but I think some hoses, rivets, sheet metal screws are similar.

My avionics shop didn’t hesitate when I asked for regular mini rocker switches instead. They are a repair station so I think they’re well versed in what’s legal and what’s not.

The breakers are with all the others on copilot side.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

so any other MS equivalent switch is legal? 

Well, maybe. It would still need to meet the current and voltage specs. 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I do not, I assume they’re stamped if I ever need to replace one of them.

Electric parts are standardized, don’t require TSO, mil spec, etc according to Mike Busch. I don’t remember the entire list, but I think some hoses, rivets, sheet metal screws are similar.

My avionics shop didn’t hesitate when I asked for regular mini rocker switches instead. They are a repair station so I think they’re well versed in what’s legal and what’s not.

The breakers are with all the others on copilot side.

So, I would agree that electrical parts are standardized. Like the TE CPC connectors Mooney used. You can buy them direct from TE instead of Mooney, but you cannot change to a different connector.

[N201MKTurbo]

I think the real answer is that nobody is dying from all these panel alterations and the FAA is taking a blind eye to the whole thing.

[outermarker]

I just educated myself on circuit breaker switches because although mine had not started to give trouble I knew that they were the original ones. Looking at Aircraft Spruce, Tyco breaker switches are $40/each. They are approved for Cessna and experimental aircraft. Klixon are $260/each. I actually put both in my hands to see if there are any size differences. There are two, one being that the Tyco unit is about 1/4" deeper and the second is the actual toggle throw is a few degrees different. On my pre-201 there is a bus bar going across the three breakers that are gained together. So, if a person decided to go with the Tyco unit, he would also have to replace all three to maintain the bus bar alignment. I wonder if this is a good case for the VARMA program. 

[PT20J]

9 minutes ago, outermarker said:

I just educated myself on circuit breaker switches because although mine had not started to give trouble I knew that they were the original ones. Looking at Aircraft Spruce, Tyco breaker switches are $40/each. They are approved for Cessna and experimental aircraft. Klixon are $260/each. I actually put both in my hands to see if there are any size differences. There are two, one being that the Tyco unit is about 1/4" deeper and the second is the actual toggle throw is a few degrees different. On my pre-201 there is a bus bar going across the three breakers that are gained together. So, if a person decided to go with the Tyco unit, he would also have to replace all three to maintain the bus bar alignment. I wonder if this is a good case for the VARMA program. 

You could replace the bus bar with wire.