Max crosswind for takeoff and landing a 1965 E model?

[Mooneydreamr]

Simple question, but I can't find the answer in my limited information POH from 1965.

[Hank]

'Cause there ain't one. 

Look closely and you may or may not find a Max. Demonstrated Crosswind. 

My C isn't fully comparable because you have 20 more hp to fight the wind, and I have a longer rudder. But I've only had too much Crosswind once, and I went to the nearby D and used their crosswind runway. Not too bad for a decade and a half. I was a pretty new pilot then, too.

[Fly Boomer]

22 minutes ago, Mooneydreamr said:

Simple question, but I can't find the answer in my limited information POH from 1965.

I would just add that the number you may or may not find in your documentation is max "demonstrated" crosswind.  It just means that a Mooney test pilot successfully negotiated that amount of crosswind once.  You may not be safe with that amount of crosswind component, or you may be able to do better.  I guess what it really means is that the gear won't fall off the airplane at that crosswind component.  Mooney wasn't necessarily trying to find a limit where you run out of control authority, or the gear folds up.

[nulloranje]

My ‘62 C AFM says that landings with a crosswind component more than 17 MPH is not recommended.

It’s not clear what this number is based on or if it a demonstrated ability. 

[Skates97]

The plane's limit is when you run out of rudder, the pilot's limit often is something less than that. Landing with partial or no flaps gives a higher stall speed which means more rudder authority, but like Hank says our 65's have the shorter rudder.

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, Skates97 said:

The plane's limit is when you run out of rudder, the pilot's limit often is something less than that. Landing with partial or no flaps gives a higher stall speed which means more rudder authority, but like Hank says our 65's have the shorter rudder.

Great answer, although I've never much problem with full flaps in a crosswind with Mooney.

[rbp]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Landing with partial or no flaps gives a higher stall speed which means more rudder authority, but like Hank says our 65's have the shorter rudder.

So many people trained in high-wing airplanes, some with smaller rudders, where the high wing with full flaps will blanket the empennage, and reduce rudder authority, that this became a widely held belief that it applies to all airplanes

It is simply not *universally* true for low-wing airplanes, and especially ones with a lot of rudder authority like the mooney.

I landed in these conditions will full flaps

[N201MKTurbo]

OK, I once landed at Laramie WY. The E-W runway was closed and the wind was out of the west at 70 KTS. There was a Beech 99 commuter on his third takeoff attempt. I landed in a full crab at zero ground speed. The commuter pilot came on the radio and said "Nicely done Mooney!" 

Landing wasn't that hard, taxiing was very difficult. 

BTW, that was in '85 when I was young and foolish. Probably wouldn't be flying on a day like that today.

[201er]

Depends on runway width. You don't want to mess with too strong a crosswind on a narrow runway. Once it pops off the ground, it will drift significantly sideways until you become aware of the intensity and turn into a crab. You don't want to dip a wing into the runway, so you're limited how quickly you can bank into that crab while sliding across the runway in the air.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, rbp said:

So many people trained in high-wing airplanes, some with smaller rudders, where the high wing with full flaps will blanket the empennage, and reduce rudder authority, that this became a widely held belief that it applies to all airplanes

It is simply not *universally* true for low-wing airplanes, and especially ones with a lot of rudder authority like the mooney.

I landed in these conditions will full flaps

Perhaps, but I think most Mooney pilots who do it, do so because they feel that the extra 5kts or so kts of approach speed gives them more control authority. It most certainly does give some additional authority, but I have never found it to be significant.  My Mooney crosswind technique has evolved over the years.  I used to slip down final but now I much prefer to crab on final and slip into the flare. 

 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

So many people trained in high-wing airplanes, some with smaller rudders, where the high wing with full flaps will blanket the empennage, and reduce rudder authority, that this became a widely held belief that it applies to all airplanes

It is simply not *universally* true for low-wing airplanes, and especially ones with a lot of rudder authority like the mooney.

I landed in these conditions will full flaps

 

I sure hope I didn't say what you are quoting me as saying. 

I don't even think it's necessarily true of high-wing airplanes. I was disabused of the idea of never using full flaps in a crosswind during my CFI  training - in a high wing. Full flaps in a 15G20 direct crosswind. 

[carusoam]

A few things to add to this fine conversation…

Early Mooneys have a few points to consider…

1) Obtain a second POH for your plane…

2) have one for the year your plane was built… for legal reasons.

3) have one for the last year your plane was built… the data collection increases with accuracy and volume from the 60s to mid 70s…

4) rudder throw changed from the M20B to M20C…

5) Somewhere after 1965 the M20C rudder increased in length to include the tail cone with the rudder… (visibly evident)

6) demonstrated crosswind capability is sooo pilot skill related… putting it in the POH is probably very misleading early in the experience curve.   Start with the cross wind capability of a C152, and explore your skill at an airport with a crossing runway… 

7) It is easy to run out of rudder with the earliest Mooneys using standard cross controlled flight maneuvers…

8) Best to explore the flight envelope with a Mooney CFI on board… or at least  a safe altitude…

9) Cross controlling while low and slow has a raft of issues when things go awry…

10) generally, Use slow and smooth control inputs entering and exiting cross controlled flight… stomping on, or slipping off, the rudder pedals can induce some unwanted plane behaviors…

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

Not all crosswinds are equal. There is more to landing on a windy day than just the number. A stronger wind that is consistent is easier to deal with than a weaker one with a large gust delta. Also surrounding terrain is a variable as one nears the ground. Weird wind currents can cause uncommanded airframe movements about any axis. 

I went through a phase once I had about 500hrs of Mooney time where I felt compelled to explore the airframe's capabilities as well as my own (time to climb, slow flight, deep stalls, turf fields, short fields, crosswind capabilities, etc.). Glad that's over...  During that time I departed on several windy days with the sole intention of landing on the perpendicular runway just to see what was and was not reasonable. The worst was ever a component of 31G40 (definitely not reasonable).  The headwind component was near 20kts and gusting well above, which made for an interesting yet slow ride down final. The slip to touchdown was neither pretty nor gentle. With all the tires on asphalt, the gust was strong enough to cause the gear to skip and skid as the plane slid left to the downwind side of the runway.  Increasing right rudder helped to arrest lateral movement across the runway but exacerbated the feeling that I was fishtailing.  It was not comfortable nor reasonable.  I have other cautionary tales but they won't add much to the discussion.

For my F, I think about 25kts of relatively consistent crosswind component is the max for minimal drama landings on wide runways. YMMV. Nothing wrong with exploring your/your aircraft's abilities in a controlled environment with easy go around options, preferably with an experienced instructor on board. For this type of operation I'd give a hard pass on the 24 year old, 300hr wonder with a mostly C172 time.

[Ragsf15e]

Somewhere between 15-25 depending on your comfort level.  Or 70 if you have a wide runway and can elevator down like @N201MKTurbo.

[Andy95W]

30 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

 I was disabused of the idea of never using full flaps in a crosswind during my CFI  training - in a high wing. Full flaps in a 15G20 direct crosswind. 

Same here.  And I’d rather have the additional drag that full flaps gives you- the airplane seems to want to sit down better with less chance of a gust picking you back up into ground effect.

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Somewhere between 15-25 depending on your comfort level.  Or 70 if you have a wide runway and can elevator down like @N201MKTurbo.

https://county10.com/laramie-area-experiences-102-mph-wind-gust-monday/
 

[Ragsf15e]

51 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

https://county10.com/laramie-area-experiences-102-mph-wind-gust-monday/
 

Sheesh, that’s nearly my gear/ flaps max speed!  Might have to go past the runway and back it in!

[hammdo]

That’s nuts! 0 ground speed on final would be wild….

-Don

[Ragsf15e]

9 minutes ago, hammdo said:

That’s nuts! 0 ground speed on final would be wild….

-Don

I’ve done it once in a glider.  The 2-33 can fly pretty slow though, so the wind was only around 45mph.  It was surprisingly hard to get down in the first place because of the serious lift from the building storm cell (which also caused the wind).  Speed brakes and slipping yielded a slow descent.  Picking an aim point and then speeding up or slowing down to get over it was really hard.  The final few hundred feet straight down was a very odd feeling.  We ended up with gliders all over the place.  After landing, the front seater kept flying and the back seater jumped out to grab the wing and try to hold on!

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

Same here.  And I’d rather have the additional drag that full flaps gives you- the airplane seems to want to sit down better with less chance of a gust picking you back up into ground effect.

That's been a standard argument between the less flap and full flap groups for a long time, regardless of make/model. 

• No (or less) flaps: higher speed for more control effectiveness.
• Full flaps for slower speed at touchdown.

I was on the fence for a long time but eventually decided on the latter. In large part it was that training experience coupled with a realization that crosswind accidents happen after touching the ground. I'm convinced its more about neutralizing controls after touchdown than what happens in the air. If you are going to weathervane or be pushed sideways off the runway, might as well be going slower.

Plus, compared with a number of other aircraft, Mooney flaps don't seem to do much anyway. 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The worst was ever a component of 31G40 (definitely not reasonable).  The headwind component was near 20kts and gusting well above, which made for an interesting yet slow ride down final. The slip to touchdown was neither pretty nor gentle. With all the tires on asphalt, the gust was strong enough to cause the gear to skip and skid as the plane slid left to the downwind side of the runway.  Increasing right rudder helped to arrest lateral movement across the runway but exacerbated the feeling that I was fishtailing.  It was not comfortable nor reasonable.  I have other cautionary tales but they won't add much to the discussion.

Yikes, was there any poo? 

I'd also add that ground effect slows down winds in the last 50-100 feet, so if you run out of rudder above, you may still have enough below, but it'd still be pretty sketchy...

FWIW 15 kts is okay in a J, but I stopped there because I figured that was enough...

[midlifeflyer]

24 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd also add that ground effect slows down winds in the last 50-100 feet, 

 

Which accounts for the pilots who land on one main even when the crosswind dies down to zero  

[M20F]

40 gusting to 50 direct cross wind RWY 11 at 06C, no flaps.  The key is to actually put the wing down.  Most folks are good at stomping the rudder but they have a tendency especially in the flare of letting the wing up.  
 
It like most challenging landings was one of my better ones.  Give me calm winds down the runway and I will clunk it every time. 

[vorlon1]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

OK, I once landed at Laramie WY. The E-W runway was closed and the wind was out of the west at 70 KTS. There was a Beech 99 commuter on his third takeoff attempt. I landed in a full crab at zero ground speed. The commuter pilot came on the radio and said "Nicely done Mooney!" 

Landing wasn't that hard, taxiing was very difficult. 

BTW, that was in '85 when I was young and foolish. Probably wouldn't be flying on a day like that today.

Boy would I love to see THAT on vodeo...

[N201MKTurbo]

19 minutes ago, vorlon1 said:

Boy would I love to see THAT on vodeo...

I pulled it off pretty well. It would be boring to watch. It looked like a normal landing with no rollout. I carried enough power so the approach was pretty normal. I reduced power when I was flying a few feet above the runway and it settled on the runway. Taxiing was very difficult. As @Shadrach said the plane didn't want to stick to the ground and was skittering around. A few times it weathervaned into the wind without my input. it took about 5 minutes to taxii to the FBO. It took about 20in MP to keep the plane in the parking spot, which was into the wind. I called the FBO and asked if someone could come out and tie me down with the engine running. They did! as soon as I shut down the engine the plane was straining on the chains. I left a few hours later and the wind had calmed down to about 40 MPH so the departure was no big deal. The trip back to Denver went pretty quick.