Preferred Oil Analysis Lab

[Greg Ellis]

I have had two flights where I did an oil analysis before the flight and if I had the results of the oil analysis prior to making the flights, I never would have flown them.  The engine was doing great on both flights with no evident issues (ran smooth, oil temps and pressures fine) but the oil analysis told a different story.  So, I still do oil analysis but this time I try to wait to make a long cross-country flight until I get the analysis back.  Blackstone labs does take a long time to get your results back. 

[EricJ]

When my prop governor slowly ate itself the wear metals showed up in the oil analysis before they showed up on the magnet, so I knew to be looking for something in the filter.   That said, it got obvious on the magnet when it got serious, so I wouldn't have missed it there.   Another thing that the oil analysis was useful for, though, was confirming that the wear metals went back to normal after the governor was replaced, so it confirmed that that was the problem and that there were no other serious issues that showed up in the analysis.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

I have had two flights where I did an oil analysis before the flight and if I had the results of the oil analysis prior to making the flights, I never would have flown them.  The engine was doing great on both flights with no evident issues (ran smooth, oil temps and pressures fine) but the oil analysis told a different story.  So, I still do oil analysis but this time I try to wait to make a long cross-country flight until I get the analysis back.  Blackstone labs does take a long time to get your results back. 

According to Continental tech support, to be meaningful the oil sample period should be as close to the same hours in service every time.

[Greg Ellis]

Just now, M20Doc said:

According to Continental tech support, to be meaningful the oil sample period should be as close to the same hours in service every time.

I was talking about two totally different flights based over 400 hours flight time apart.  They were not back to back samples and they were samples from two different engines on my plane.  Sorry I was not clear on that.

[Greg Ellis]

3 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

According to Continental tech support, to be meaningful the oil sample period should be as close to the same hours in service every time.

I sample every 25 hours or so when I change the oil.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

I have had two flights where I did an oil analysis before the flight and if I had the results of the oil analysis prior to making the flights, I never would have flown them.  The engine was doing great on both flights with no evident issues (ran smooth, oil temps and pressures fine) but the oil analysis told a different story.  So, I still do oil analysis but this time I try to wait to make a long cross-country flight until I get the analysis back.  Blackstone labs does take a long time to get your results back. 

So what did the analysis tell you that was so concerning that you would have skipped a trip that went fine?

[Greg Ellis]

19 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

So what did the analysis tell you that was so concerning that you would have skipped a trip that went fine?

Sorry...I read my responses and they were vague and probably could have been worded better.  I did not want to high jack the original poster's thread.  But this is the story....

I had an engine failure in New Mexico a few years ago.  I was able to land at Clovis fortunately.  They pulled the oil filter and it was chock full of metal.  I will never forget the image of how much metal there was in the oil visible to the naked eye.  Prior to this flight I had changed my oil and it looked fine visibly, and I did an oil sample and sent it to Blackstone.  It did not come back prior to the flight but if it had I never would have taken the flight.  Where copper is normally 4, 5, 6 or so, mine showed 400!!!!  The engine ran fine up until the point in the flight where the oil temp began to rise and the oil pressure began to fall dramatically.  The plane had a cylinder overhauled and I speculate although I cannot prove it, that the cylinder was not torqued on properly and the engine ate one or more bearings.  Blackstone Labs told me that is where the copper comes from in an engine.  But if I had waited for the analysis to come back, the outcome to the engine would not have been different but I would not have risked my life and my wife's life unknowingly.

Story number 2.  I flew up to Kansas City from Texas.  I had done an oil analysis prior to the flight.  One drawback to Blackstone is that they seem to take a long time to get you your results.  I was sitting in a restaurant in Kansas City and got a call from Blackstone which is never good when they call you.  They advised me not to fly the airplane.  I had a shop on the field take off the oil filter and it was a mess.  This was on the engine that replaced the one in the previous story.  It had about 450 hours on it and was flying great.  No issues with temps or pressures or anything else.  This took me totally by surprise.  So we contacted the shop (a very well-known engine builder) that sold me this engine and they asked to have it back to be torn down and inspected.  So, while my wife and I drove home, the shop in Kansas removed my engine and sent it back to the engine shop.  I got a call from the engine shop with a laundry list of problems with the engine.  They were laying the blame at my feet for a 450 hour engine going south.  I contacted multiple A&P's for advice.  They told me that this was not my problem and were almost unanimous in what the issue was that could cause the lengthy list of problems.  So, back and forth with the engine shop I go until I get to the owner of the shop.  He and I had a pleasant conversation over the phone and he basically told me I was on the hook for $14,000 and the cost was rising as they got further into it.  I explained to him in detail how I fly the airplane and that this should not have happened.  Well, I would say long story short but it has already dragged on long enough.  I get a call a few weeks later saying they will cover all of the bill and I just have to pay for shipping.  The point of this lengthy story is that if it wasn't for that analysis from Blackstone Labs, I would have flown a sick airplane from Kansas back to Fort Worth and who knows what might have happened during that flight home.  Like I said, the engine was running great with absolutely no issues that I could discern if it wasn't for the analysis.

So, the oil analysis on both of these episodes either could have saved me a lot of trouble or did save me a lot of potential trouble.  I will reiterate that the airplane was flying great on both episodes with no indication of a problem or concern leading up to the moment I had the issues.  All temperatures and pressures were fine up until the moment of failure in the first episode and there was no indication of an issue at all leading up to the issues in the second episode.

 

 

[Will.iam]

36 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

Sorry...I read my responses and they were vague and probably could have been worded better.  I did not want to high jack the original poster's thread.  But this is the story....

I had an engine failure in New Mexico a few years ago.  I was able to land at Clovis fortunately.  They pulled the oil filter and it was chock full of metal.  I will never forget the image of how much metal there was in the oil visible to the naked eye.  Prior to this flight I had changed my oil and it looked fine visibly, and I did an oil sample and sent it to Blackstone.  It did not come back prior to the flight but if it had I never would have taken the flight.  Where copper is normally 4, 5, 6 or so, mine showed 400!!!!  The engine ran fine up until the point in the flight where the oil temp began to rise and the oil pressure began to fall dramatically.  The plane had a cylinder overhauled and I speculate although I cannot prove it, that the cylinder was not torqued on properly and the engine ate one or more bearings.  Blackstone Labs told me that is where the copper comes from in an engine.  But if I had waited for the analysis to come back, the outcome to the engine would not have been different but I would not have risked my life and my wife's life unknowingly.

Story number 2.  I flew up to Kansas City from Texas.  I had done an oil analysis prior to the flight.  One drawback to Blackstone is that they seem to take a long time to get you your results.  I was sitting in a restaurant in Kansas City and got a call from Blackstone which is never good when they call you.  They advised me not to fly the airplane.  I had a shop on the field take off the oil filter and it was a mess.  This was on the engine that replaced the one in the previous story.  It had about 450 hours on it and was flying great.  No issues with temps or pressures or anything else.  This took me totally by surprise.  So we contacted the shop (a very well-known engine builder) that sold me this engine and they asked to have it back to be torn down and inspected.  So, while my wife and I drove home, the shop in Kansas removed my engine and sent it back to the engine shop.  I got a call from the engine shop with a laundry list of problems with the engine.  They were laying the blame at my feet for a 450 hour engine going south.  I contacted multiple A&P's for advice.  They told me that this was not my problem and were almost unanimous in what the issue was that could cause the lengthy list of problems.  So, back and forth with the engine shop I go until I get to the owner of the shop.  He and I had a pleasant conversation over the phone and he basically told me I was on the hook for $14,000 and the cost was rising as they got further into it.  I explained to him in detail how I fly the airplane and that this should not have happened.  Well, I would say long story short but it has already dragged on long enough.  I get a call a few weeks later saying they will cover all of the bill and I just have to pay for shipping.  The point of this lengthy story is that if it wasn't for that analysis from Blackstone Labs, I would have flown a sick airplane from Kansas back to Fort Worth and who knows what might have happened during that flight home.  Like I said, the engine was running great with absolutely no issues that I could discern if it wasn't for the analysis.

So, the oil analysis on both of these episodes either could have saved me a lot of trouble or did save me a lot of potential trouble.  I will reiterate that the airplane was flying great on both episodes with no indication of a problem or concern leading up to the moment I had the issues.  All temperatures and pressures were fine up until the moment of failure in the first episode and there was no indication of an issue at all leading up to the issues in the second episode.

 

 

wow your review would be highly sought after at blackstone for reasons to do oil analysis.  I hope my oil analysis will give me a forewarning if something is about to go south.  Knock on wood my engine is running great right now but I hope it will start telling me slowly and not all of a sudden if it does start to go.

[Ragsf15e]

I had a lesser, but still good, experience.  All of a sudden silicon was high and they told me to check my intake/filters.  Sure enough, found a pretty good leak in the rubber Ram air gasket.  Corrected it and silicon went back down.

[GeeBee]

Most of my airplane issues showed up in my filter but I did have oil analysis save me heartache on a boat engine. The water/oil heat exchanger was in deterioration mode and I was able to change it out before water got in the oil.

[DXB]

10 hours ago, M20Doc said:

While we do lots of oil samples, I’ve yet to see one catch an engine problem that wasn’t in the oil filter.  In fact sometimes it causes more grief than good, chasing phantom issues when none exist.  I don’t sample any of my own engines.

 

9 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I am a heretic as well. After over a decade of analysis, it sort of became an exercise in maintenance navel gazing. The results were typically consistent with any anomalies being minor.  As much as the idea of becoming an amateur tribologist appeals to me, I came to the conclusion that most any issue warranting a maintenance intervention would likely be obvious upstream of oil analysis.

THIS!  Blackstone or Avlab? The correct and cheapest answer is #3.  No oil analysis.   

I did find Avlab's electron microscopy svc useful once in reassuring me that some nonferrous hard particles I found once were not metallic.  

[Shadrach]

34 minutes ago, DXB said:

 

THIS!  Blackstone or Avlab? The correct and cheapest answer is #3.  No oil analysis.   

I did find Avlab's electron microscopy svc useful once in reassuring me that some nonferrous hard particles I found once were not metallic.  

A good case for taking a sample in the off chance the filter shows something questionable. Then you have the option to send it in for more info.

[hubcap]

Let’s imagine the average guy flies 150hrs / year and gets an oil change every 50 hours. That is a little over $100 for oil and trend analysis. 
 

If you can’t afford that you have no business in aviation, and I can see no reason that the oil analysis is not useful in managing my maintenance. While the oil analysis is not a cure all it does have value.

I certainly do not understand why I need to be clandestine with the data, and I have no problem with Blackstone keeping the data. 

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, hubcap said:

If you can’t afford that you have no business in aviation, and I can see no reason that the oil analysis is not useful in managing my maintenance. While the oil analysis is not a cure all it does have value.

Translation: if you’ve you’ve spent 10 out of 20 years of Mooney ownership doing the thing that I’m currently doing and decided it doesn’t really have any utility for you, you must not be able to afford it and should stop flying.

[hubcap]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Translation: if you’ve you’ve spent 10 out of 20 years of Mooney ownership doing the thing that I’m currently doing and decided it doesn’t really have any utility for you, you must not be able to afford it and should stop flying.

Nope. Why so defensive? Did not mean to imply anything of the sort. Please do not put words into my mouth. I simply said “IF you can’t afford it you have no business in aviation. “

The cost is not prohibitive. 
 

If you choose not to use the service as part of your maintenance program…your call.

 

 

[DXB]

Just now, hubcap said:

If you can’t afford that you have no business in aviation, and I can see no reason that the oil analysis is not useful in managing my maintenance. While the oil analysis is not a cure all it does have value.

I've as yet to hear any compelling case for its value for our piston aircraft engines, and I certainly didn't find value in it personally  during the few years I was religiously using Blackstone. Having value would mean it provides actionable information that could not be obtained easily and in a timely manner by the other routine monitoring we all should be doing. It does provide tons of data that is not actionable, and the potentially actionable info it can provide is far less definitive than that offered other routine monitoring measures we should be doing anyway (e.g. examining filter and screen, borescope of cylinders, annual compression tests).  And two features can make it worse than worthless: (1) It often leads to findings with ultimately no significance for the health of the engine that cause pointless worry  (2) Some folks have certainly used it in place of far more reliable measures - e.g. the folks being reassured by normal stable oil analyses, only to have their A&P find gobs of metal in the filter from spalled cam/lifters.

[hubcap]

Just now, DXB said:

I've as yet to hear any compelling case for its value for our piston aircraft engines, and I certainly didn't find value in it personally  during the few years I was religiously using Blackstone. Having value would mean it provides actionable information that could not be obtained easily and in a timely manner by the other routine monitoring we all should be doing. It does provide tons of data that is not actionable, and the potentially actionable info it can provide is far less definitive than that offered other routine monitoring measures we should be doing anyway (e.g. examining filter and screen, borescope of cylinders, annual compression tests).  And two features can make it worse than worthless: (1) It often leads to findings with ultimately no significance for the health of the engine that cause pointless worry  (2) Some folks have certainly used it in place of far more reliable measures - e.g. the folks being reassured by normal stable oil analyses, only to have their A&P find gobs of metal in the filter from spalled cam/lifters.

A previous poster listed 2 instances of catastrophic failures being predicted. That would seem actionable to me.

[EricJ]

Oil analysis is just another tool to use or not use depending on your wants and needs and risk tolerance, etc.    It's kinda like an engine monitor.   Do you need one?   No.   Can it help?   Yes.    Can you get by without one?   Yes.    Can people who are skilled at using it potentially avoid an expensive and dangerous issue?   Yes.

The value of that is totally in the eye of the beholder.   Different people will come to different conclusions.   Kinda like people buying airplanes with parachutes.

[DXB]

8 minutes ago, hubcap said:

A previous poster listed 2 instances of catastrophic failures being predicted. That would seem actionable to me.

Nope. In both cases the owner cutting open the oil filter routinely at appropriate interval oil changes would have provided a more reliable indicator of problems than the oil analysis. It sounds like an owner was sending oil analyses and putting confidence in them rather than looking in his filter - another scenario where oil analysis is actually worse than worthless. 

[GeeBee]

Every year I have a blood test and every time, everything is normal. Think I will stop doing it and save some money. 

[exM20K]

I reached out to Blackstone on this privacy issue and got a long reply.  The portion relevant to my concerns is this:

If you're planning on selling the plane and you 
do NOT want that data transferred to the new 
customer, you can let us know

-dan

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

I reached out to Blackstone on this privacy issue and got a long reply.  The portion relevant to my concerns is this:

If you're planning on selling the plane and you 
do NOT want that data transferred to the new 
customer, you can let us know

-dan

So, when you sell, what are you going to say to a buyer when they ask if you have been doing oil analyses?

1) Lie and say, "NO"

2) Say, "Yes, but you can't see the history"

[T. Peterson]

On 4/3/2023 at 6:49 PM, RoundTwo said:

At Sun-n-Fun, AvLab was offering 2 pre-paid oil analysis kits for $30. Now that Blackstone is $35 each, I’m tempted.

Thoughts?

If I had begun building a relationship with one company and they gave me no reason to be dissatisfied I would not leave them to save 5 dollars.

[GeeBee]

With holding information such as oil analysis from a buyer, especially if it is material to an incident is a fast track to a judge who will uncover it in discovery.  If you don't want the information to a prospective buyer, don't do oil analysis period. Think of this type of information like those nude pictures your girlfriend sent you, it is always out there, even if you "erase" them and someone (even the dumbest plaintiffs attorney) will find it. 

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, hubcap said:

I simply said “IF you can’t afford it you have no business in aviation. “

 

 

This is probably the most mis-interpreted statement used when discussing anything aviation…

It was equally mis-understood, and not helpful in the 70s as well…

 

It comes off to some people…

1) I have plenty of dough… I can afford it.

2) You don’t have plenty of dough… you can’t afford it.

3) If you can’t afford it, you have no business being here…

 

4) Nobody likes being told they don’t belong…

5) The speaker has no method of knowing what the listener can or can’t afford…

6) Hard feelings all around…

7) Probably not what the speaker is intending…

8) We can all fly Mooneys… Sooooo we all can afford it…

9) I dropped this well meaning statement from spoken and written language…

10) It’s too easy to accidentally insult somebody you are trying to befriend… enough to deliver the message you are trying to convey.

Right up there with… if you have to ask… you can’t afford it!

Funny, until mis-interpreted…   

 

When I bought the O… not only did I not get any history of the oil analysis… but the engine monitor’s data had been nicely wiped clean… 

This is normal procedure for traditional machine sales…

 

I’m pretty sure data would be nice to have…

As owner of the data… I would be really surprised when a vendor passed my data on to the next owner… this is not normal practice of any kind.

If the new owner wants it… all he has to do is ask. 

 

What if the new owner… is simply a con artist.  Looking to renegotiate the sale price with a flimsy law suit… backed up with data he was given by the unknowing third party…

I would be disappointed with the con-artist, the third party, and the legal system that allows this kind of thing to happen….

PP thoughts only, the world doesn’t share data this way… ask the folks at Tik-Tok.  

Best regards,

-a-