Close Call At JFK

[will1874]

If I had a near ground collision through my error, I would be on the phone to the Fight Ops Duty Pilot so the company is in the loop before I took off and let them make the decision. Worst thing you can do is let your Chief Pilot get blind sided.
 

I got the impression by the ATC audio that they weren't aware that they were in danger of a collision. The captain was confused only about being "cleared to cross"


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[StevenL757]

Good points @Will.iam,and I largely-agree; however, that family dynamic in today's airline cockpit can be similar...and different.

Our FOM, checklists, briefing quality, etc., demand a consistent level of performance and overall demonstration of safety.  We double-check, and in many cases, triple-check just about everything from the preflight to shutdown/leaving aircraft.  We're expected to question anything that doesn't sound or look right at any time.  This is especially true when surface-navigating.  The AA crew's level of attention-to-detail (or alleged lack of) at this phase of flight should have been high enough that at least one pilot should've caught the error and called it out (on the AA 777 to London, there was likely a third crewmember aboard, and possibly another jumpseater, so that's three or even four sets of eyes looking out for hazards.).  Any of those in the cockpit are expected to offer the same level of situation awareness, adherence to sterile cockpit rules, and observation skills as the PF and PM (this is outlined in ALPA's jumpseat criteria/guidelines for Delta pilots...as well as other carriers).

An expression I learned from a mentor and LCA in my company (with whom I try to pair whenever possible) is "We sell safety here".  We repeat it to each other periodically in casual conversations, and firmly believe in it.  My passengers expect perfection.  I agree with your message that we aren't perfect and never will be; however, we have a responsibility as professional pilots to train and conduct ourselves to that standard.

[jaylw314]

15 hours ago, Will.iam said:

i filled out an asap report which the company accepted and that was the end of that. 
maybe the crew didn’t realize at the time how close a call this really was or they knew of the 24hr allowance and didn’t call but sources said they took off 30 mins late so maybe they talked to someone? From what i hear they did not operate the plane back and were deadheaded back to the states. But that could just be rumor. 

Oh, I saw somewhere that they made the phone call and made the flight 30 minutes late, but obviously not sure if that is accurate

[Pinecone]

On 1/16/2023 at 6:51 PM, aviatoreb said:

I also do it as I’m passing through a green light…. Just in case the other guy is screwing up.  My grandfather used to say / don’t be right and dead.

One enhancement, look Left - Right - Left (in US or other left hand drive countries) before going.   Traffic coming from your left is in the closer lane and more likely to be obscured.  And the time to look L-R-L allows those running the "yellow" to blow through before you enter the intersection

[Cruiser]

22 hours ago, AIREMATT said:

Not all familiar in the air either sometimes in some foreign airspace. Plenty of distractions with language barriers, lack of technology, different ICAO terminologies and foreign boundaries requiring pre-arranged permissions that lead to distractions and preconceived bias that are hard to get your head to see through sometimes, especially when on the back side of the body clock…

A friend of mine likes to tell about an incident he experienced while flying utility line patrols in Indonesia. He said he had always managed to communicate even with some very difficult effects on the English slurred by second language dialects, but had a particularly hard time understanding the tower controller on final approach this time, he repeatedly told her that he could not understand her instruction and since he was on approach, he assumed he was clearly to land when he heard a very heavily accented British voice clearly say, " this is the 747Heavy behind you and she wants you to keep your speed up because I am coming up your A**. !"

[GeeBee]

2 hours ago, will1874 said:

I got the impression by the ATC audio that they weren't aware that they were in danger of a collision. The captain was confused only about being "cleared to cross"


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He heard the controller asking Delta if he needed to remain on the runway, and heard Delta say "Ugh"... If he did not make the connection his SA was so bad, he needed to return to the gate.

[will1874]

He heard the controller asking Delta if he needed to remain on the runway, and heard Delta say "Ugh"... If he did not make the connection his SA was so bad, he needed to return to the gate.

It's a shame they didn't go back. It would be valuable to have that CVR.


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[AIREMATT]

1 hour ago, Cruiser said:

A friend of mine likes to tell about an incident he experienced while flying utility line patrols in Indonesia. He said he had always managed to communicate even with some very difficult effects on the English slurred by second language dialects, but had a particularly hard time understanding the tower controller on final approach this time, he repeatedly told her that he could not understand her instruction and since he was on approach, he assumed he was clearly to land when he heard a very heavily accented British voice clearly say, " this is the 747Heavy behind you and she wants you to keep your speed up because I am coming up your A**. !"

Always nice to have a translator in the other plane to help you out:).

[GeeBee]

Not a good way to go. If the NTSB has to subpoena you things are going to get worse.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-safety-board-subpoenas-american-airlines-flight-crew-nyc-near-miss-2023-02-10/

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

If the NTSB has to subpoena you things are going to get worse.

Had they just fessed up, no harm no foul and some more training and maybe some other sanctions.  But they keep working.

Now, I'd just fire them both for cause (safety).  I'm all for innocent until proven guilty, but this isn't a court case where someone (gov or whomever) is trying to impede your freedoms or wealth.  They screwed up and now they're trying to just blow it off because they're entitled and the rules do not apply to them. 

And there is NO reason for the Union to legitimately tell them not to talk.  Only talk with their lawyers or even through the lawyers I get, but not to talk tells volumes.  Again, not a criminal case, no one died, they just screwed up and the actions would have been relatively minor.

Stand up and be accountable for your actions! 

(Sorry for the rant... I really can't stand the people that just blow off their own accountability for their actions.)

[GeeBee]

I don't think they should be fired, but IMHO they are getting bad advice from the APA. 

Something like this, you need to raise your hand, say "My foul" and take the heat. Honesty and forthright demeanor counts a lot in cases like this and it will go easier on you if you do.