New Avionics/Complete Panel for the Mooney

[TheBearFlies]

So I made the decision to go forward with a complete panel for my 1997 Mooney Ovation. I am the third owner of the plane and It has the original panel and avionics. I was faced with the decision to upgrade some of the avionics or go for the full monty.  In June 2022, we pulled the trigger for the full Monty! After doing some research I decided on...Garmin G3x touch 10.6" Pilot, 7" CoPilot, Garmin EIS, G5 backup, GFC500 AP, GTN 650xi, GDL50R, GMA345 Audio Panel, GTR 20 Remote com 2, CIES fuel senders.

Of course this caries a hefty price tag but we felt it was an appropriate upgrade for a low time 25 year old aircraft. After receiving 5 quotes from various avionics shops we decided to go with AATG in Greeley CO, KGXY.

Plane got dropped off end of December and I will be posting pictures of the process as it happens. First picture will be of N14AC day of drop-off.

Feel free to give advice, gotchas, training resources for Garmin etc...

[TheBearFlies]

Of course the first stage of the process is tear out. 

[Scottknoll]

We are just finishing up a similar process (1998 Ovation 29-0135). Our panel looked the same as yours a few months ago. We added a mircrokit LHS (ties into GPS now), Aithre built in CO detector (provides history, not just alerting), Lemo plugs all around, headphone jack for Mountain High O2D2, CiES Fuel Senders. We also worked on defrost hoses, since it’s easily accessible. Ours looked like a molting snakeskin and the company that made them apparently doesn’t exist anymore. Yours look much better than ours did. Basically we tried to think of anything that would be easier to do or address now with the panel out.

Read the manuals, there’s a lot in there. Pilot Guide, AFMS, and ICA (each has slightly different info). As I was reading, we actually came up with a few changes. One was possibly removing the rudder trim indicator and displaying it on the G500Txi, not sure about the G3X. We ended up keeping it because we wanted EIS on a GI275 (wanted to see all EGT/CHT numbers simultaneously). GI275 cannot display rudder trim indicator.

There is a Garmin avionics trainer, but I think it’s just G500/G500Txi. It does have the GTN navigators though. It’s windows only, so I had to use parallels to run it. There’s also iPad apps for the GTN/G500. Not sure if there is an equivalent for the G3X.

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12373

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, Scottknoll said:

There is a Garmin avionics trainer, but I think it’s just G500/G500Txi. It does have the GTN navigators though. It’s windows only, so I had to use parallels to run it. There’s also iPad apps for the GTN/G500. Not sure if there is an equivalent for the G3X.

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12373

Garmin does have a free iPad version of the GTN trainer. They used to charge $25.00 but decided to do the right thing (but only after I forked over the $25)

[TheBearFlies]

8 hours ago, Scottknoll said:

We are just finishing up a similar process (1998 Ovation 29-0135). Our panel looked the same as yours a few months ago. We added a mircrokit LHS (ties into GPS now), Aithre built in CO detector (provides history, not just alerting), Lemo plugs all around, headphone jack for Mountain High O2D2, CiES Fuel Senders. We also worked on defrost hoses, since it’s easily accessible. Ours looked like a molting snakeskin and the company that made them apparently doesn’t exist anymore. Yours look much better than ours did. Basically we tried to think of anything that would be easier to do or address now with the panel out.

Read the manuals, there’s a lot in there. Pilot Guide, AFMS, and ICA (each has slightly different info). As I was reading, we actually came up with a few changes. One was possibly removing the rudder trim indicator and displaying it on the G500Txi, not sure about the G3X. We ended up keeping it because we wanted EIS on a GI275 (wanted to see all EGT/CHT numbers simultaneously). GI275 cannot display rudder trim indicator.

There is a Garmin avionics trainer, but I think it’s just G500/G500Txi. It does have the GTN navigators though. It’s windows only, so I had to use parallels to run it. There’s also iPad apps for the GTN/G500. Not sure if there is an equivalent for the G3X.

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12373

Already downloaded the GTN650 trainer for iPad. Time to start using it.

[TheBearFlies]

8 hours ago, Scottknoll said:

We are just finishing up a similar process (1998 Ovation 29-0135). Our panel looked the same as yours a few months ago. We added a mircrokit LHS (ties into GPS now), Aithre built in CO detector (provides history, not just alerting), Lemo plugs all around, headphone jack for Mountain High O2D2, CiES Fuel Senders. We also worked on defrost hoses, since it’s easily accessible. Ours looked like a molting snakeskin and the company that made them apparently doesn’t exist anymore. Yours look much better than ours did. Basically we tried to think of anything that would be easier to do or address now with the panel out.

Read the manuals, there’s a lot in there. Pilot Guide, AFMS, and ICA (each has slightly different info). As I was reading, we actually came up with a few changes. One was possibly removing the rudder trim indicator and displaying it on the G500Txi, not sure about the G3X. We ended up keeping it because we wanted EIS on a GI275 (wanted to see all EGT/CHT numbers simultaneously). GI275 cannot display rudder trim indicator.

There is a Garmin avionics trainer, but I think it’s just G500/G500Txi. It does have the GTN navigators though. It’s windows only, so I had to use parallels to run it. There’s also iPad apps for the GTN/G500. Not sure if there is an equivalent for the G3X.

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12373

Are you happy with the Aithre CO detector?

[rbp]

19 hours ago, TheBearFlies said:

Garmin G3x touch 10.6" Pilot, 7" CoPilot, Garmin EIS, G5 backup, GFC500 AP, GTN 650xi, GDL50R, GMA345 Audio Panel, GTR 20 Remote com 2, CIES fuel senders

you only have one IFR navigator? 

[rbp]

18 hours ago, Scottknoll said:

One was possibly removing the rudder trim indicator and displaying it on the G500Txi, not sure about the G3X. We ended up keeping it because we wanted EIS on a GI275 (wanted to see all EGT/CHT numbers simultaneously). GI275 cannot display rudder trim indicator

the G3X has a EIS strip (which can go on either side). if you tap the strip, it opens a full engine panel on the split screen. tap again it disappears. Not sure why you would need to see all 6 cyls at all times.

[Pinecone]

Need one more EIS strip for CHT.  But don't really need to see EGT all the time.

I would be fine with showing the hottest only, and tap to expand.

[Ryan ORL]

You're going to love this setup!  Almost the same one I just put in my J.  The G3X is an amazing unit.

I noticed you're doing a GDL50R, I guess that's because you're using a Stratus (I think, from the photo?) transponder?

[Scottknoll]

As far as I knew, the G500Txi only shows the hottest CHT/EGT unless you tap to cycle through them, even on the engine page. And you still can’t see all 6 values simultaneously. The G3X seems to display them all on the engine page, as seen above. I like to do the big mixture pull, then enrich and see all EGT numbers increase. JPI did display all values simultaneously, and it was what I was used to. Ultimately is was just a design choice, and only cost the price of a base GI275.

Haven’t received the final product yet, so can’t comment on the Aithre CO detector.

Picture is obviously a twin, from the Pilot Guide.

[TheBearFlies]

3 hours ago, rbp said:

you only have one IFR navigator? 

What is the latest thought on quantity of navigators? GTN is a double navigator being separate GPS receiver and VOR/ILS receiver. Does that satisfy FAR's?

[TheBearFlies]

1 hour ago, Evan said:

Great choice going with AATG! I had my J model done by them a few months ago. George is great and so is his team. 

Yes George has been great!

[TheBearFlies]

1 hour ago, Ryan ORL said:

You're going to love this setup!  Almost the same one I just put in my J.  The G3X is an amazing unit.

I noticed you're doing a GDL50R, I guess that's because you're using a Stratus (I think, from the photo?) transponder?

My understanding is the GDL50R is a remote ADSB transponder that will show Wx and traffic on the G3x. Stratus will remain for backup.

[Ryan ORL]

25 minutes ago, TheBearFlies said:

My understanding is the GDL50R is a remote ADSB transponder that will show Wx and traffic on the G3x. Stratus will remain for backup.

Sort of.  Your transponder is still the Stratus, which would be your ADS-B OUT device.  The GDL50R just receives ADS-B IN (TIS-B Traffic, FIS-B Weather).  It's just a remote mount version of the portable one they sell.  In the case of the G3X, you would receive ADS-B IN data from the GDL50R via either RS232 (hardwired serial) or Bluetooth.  Surprisingly, the G3X receives *more* data (Lightning, a couple other items) over the Bluetooth connection versus the RS232 connection, which I only learned quite late in my install.  So I have my G3X setup to receive that data over Bluetooth (from my GTX 345 actually).  I'd recommend you have the shop set it up that way, with Automatic Reconnect.

Just out of curiosity, there's 3 versions of the GDL 5x devices:

GDL 50 - ADS-B In

GDL 51 - SiriusXM In (what I have)

GDL 52 - ADS-B and SiriusXM In

Long story short, there's some definite quirks with what data passes between the Canbus (G3X, G5, GFC500) and Ethernet (GTN, GTX, etc) stuff, which only talk to each other over RS232 serial.  I actually ran out of serial ports in my install anyway, but that wouldn't be a problem with your setup since you have two G3X displays.  (More serial ports)

[Ryan ORL]

46 minutes ago, TheBearFlies said:

What is the latest thought on quantity of navigators? GTN is a double navigator being separate GPS receiver and VOR/ILS receiver. Does that satisfy FAR's?

There is no FAR requirement to have 2 navigators.  I would be perfectly comfortable flying with 1.  You could theoretically run into trouble if somehow you were in a GPS outage AND your GTN failed entirely AND you were in IMC but... is that really likely in the first place?  And in that case, there's always asking for vectors to an area of VMC, etc.  It's pretty hard to imagine a real world scenario where that would matter.

[ArtVandelay]

My understanding is the GDL50R is a remote ADSB transponder that will show Wx and traffic on the G3x. Stratus will remain for backup.

True.
But I ran out of RS232 ports on my GTN 650 so l don’t get ADSB data in the 650 (650 has 4 pairs, I think 750 has 6). I was okay with this because I have traffic and Wx also on my Aera 660 and Garmin pilot. OP may want to start counting connections necessary to see if there will be a problem and if it’s acceptable.

[TheBearFlies]

Just for kicks and grins I looked it up, FAR 91.205

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.

[rbp]

22 hours ago, Ryan ORL said:

  Surprisingly, the G3X receives *more* data (Lightning, a couple other items) over the Bluetooth connection versus the RS232 connection, which I only learned quite late in my install.  So I have my G3X setup to receive that data over Bluetooth (from my GTX 345 actually).  I'd recommend you have the shop set it up that way, with Automatic Reconnect.

how is this configured?

[rbp]

22 hours ago, Ryan ORL said:

There is no FAR requirement to have 2 navigators.  I would be perfectly comfortable flying with 1.  You could theoretically run into trouble if somehow you were in a GPS outage AND your GTN failed entirely AND you were in IMC

are single points of failure for any single device -- power, screen, buttons/knobs

[Ryan ORL]

2 hours ago, rbp said:

how is this configured?

The G3X is paired (Bluetooth menu) to the Bluetooth on the GTX 345.  Then you have to (on the G3X) enable "Automatic Reconnect", which is a bit hidden (Press the "Menu" on the Bluetooth screen).

[Ryan ORL]

2 hours ago, rbp said:

are single points of failure for any single device -- power, screen, buttons/knobs

Well, even if you lost the entire electrical system, you could still have the G5, running on battery for ~4 hours.  (You could electrically isolate it also, if you pulled the G5 breaker)  You wouldn't have any nav... but you could use your iPad for GPS, etc.

With buttons, there are numerous ways to activate virtually every function between the G3X, G5, and GTN.  There is also crossfill between the various devices so for example you don't even need any working knobs/touchscreen on any particular device.  The only thing you really can't properly crossfill is a "Direct To" operation, which can only be done on the GTN, but that is accessible via either a touchscreen press or a physical button press.

[PT20J]

I installed a G3X with EIS, G5, GTN 650Xi, GNC 255A, GTX 345, GFC 500 and yoke mount iPad/ForeFlight with a hardwired USB power source.

G3X fails: I can use the iPad and G5 and the G5 will drive the GFC 500. I can operate an IO-360 safely without any engine gauges.

GTN fails: I can use the G3X GPS. Technically it is VFR, but it will navigate and provide lateral guidance on an approach. Plus, I still have the GNC which will navigate and allow shooting conventional approaches.

G5 or GNC fails: Don't care -- it was a backup anyway,

Complete aircraft power failure: Unlikely, but the G5 and iPad will soldier on with batteries. The iPad has a GPS and is fully charged because it has been running on ships power.

As @Ryan ORL pointed out, to get full functionality with the iPad you need to Bluetooth pair it to both the G3X (for flight plan transfer) and the GTX (for ADS-B In, GPS position and AHRS).

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[toto]

33 minutes ago, PT20J said:

to get full functionality with the iPad you need to Bluetooth pair it to both the G3X (for flight plan transfer)

Wait, you can transfer a flight plan to the G3X via Bluetooth?

I thought that flight plan transfer was only possible via WiFi with a FlightStream.

[Ryan ORL]

2 minutes ago, toto said:

Wait, you can transfer a flight plan to the G3X via Bluetooth?

I thought that flight plan transfer was only possible via WiFi with a FlightStream.

You can pair to the G3X directly and do it.  It can then crossfill to the GTN.

I ended up getting a FlightStream 510 so I only need one Bluetooth connection to get everything (flight plans, weather, traffic), but that’s just nice to have.  (And in the end I have 3 Bluetooth connections anyway: FlightStream, GMA 345 audio panel, and GDL51R for SiriusXM)