During my prepurchase inspection the mechanic squawked...

[KLRDMD]

  On 1/7/2023 at 7:06 PM, skykrawler said:

25 year bladders sounds like a consideration - ask a Beech owner.

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You need to replace the bladders on Bonanza/Barons. No argument. I just replaced one of my fuel cells in my Bonanza. The piece of crap original one only lasted 62 years . . .

[Marauder]

  On 1/7/2023 at 7:12 PM, KLRDMD said:

You need to replace the bladders on Bonanza/Barons. No argument. I just replaced one of my fuel cells in my Bonanza. The piece of crap original one only lasted 62 years . . .

Just horrible service life!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[jetdriven]

  On 1/7/2023 at 7:06 PM, skykrawler said:

The fact is, buyers are assuming all the risk in the transaction.  Many buyers are not experienced aircraft owners and rely on a pre-buy inspection which is often a complete crap shoot.    25 year bladders sounds like a consideration - ask a Beech owner.

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We might as well start saying that airplanes that haven't been resealed in 15 years we should deduct for that $11,000 too, and if the engine and prop are past 12 years old, those are automatically core value.  I'm not saying don't deduct for condition. I see a lot of leaking fuel tanks, just none of theM are bladder airplanes.

however, we have a plane in the shop right now that the pre-buy, managed by savvy even, completely omitted the fact that it has original 2005 airbag seatbelts which are now  well timed-out and I just got the price for the stuff it's over four grand.    That and the $1500 turbo clamp. And the ships battery that failed a capacity test in pretty spectacular fashion.. 35%.  That's another 900 bucks.   TKS fluid dripping inside the wing from a leaky manifold o-ring seal. , and there's several spots where it's pouring out, nobody mentioned that really either.  Stuff in plain daylight that was missed. 
 

[EricJ]

  On 1/7/2023 at 7:06 PM, skykrawler said:

The fact is, buyers are assuming all the risk in the transaction.  

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I'd disagree with that.    Every time the airplane gets touched by an "independent" mechanic doing an "inspection", you take a risk that it didn't get put back together properly or something got broken in the process.    If the buyer bails, you get to find out whether it's still in one piece or not, or, even worse, the next "independent" mechanic finds some disaster left by the previous one and then it just kind of snowballs.   No buyer is gonna foot the bill for that, it's on the back of the seller.

 

[skykrawler]

  On 1/8/2023 at 12:17 AM, EricJ said:

I'd disagree with that.    Every time the airplane gets touched by an "independent" mechanic doing an "inspection", you take a risk that it didn't get put back together properly or something got broken in the process.    If the buyer bails, you get to find out whether it's still in one piece or not, or, even worse, the next "independent" mechanic finds some disaster left by the previous one and then it just kind of snowballs.   No buyer is gonna foot the bill for that, it's on the back of the seller.

 

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There are ways to mitigate that.  The buyer can't mitigate anything once he strokes the check.

[jetdriven]

  On 1/8/2023 at 12:17 AM, EricJ said:

I'd disagree with that.    Every time the airplane gets touched by an "independent" mechanic doing an "inspection", you take a risk that it didn't get put back together properly or something got broken in the process.    If the buyer bails, you get to find out whether it's still in one piece or not, or, even worse, the next "independent" mechanic finds some disaster left by the previous one and then it just kind of snowballs.   No buyer is gonna foot the bill for that, it's on the back of the seller.

 

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"you take a risk that it didn't get put back together properly or something got broken in the process."  Take a big enough deposit to mitigate that. And call the buyer's shop  and get a feel for if he knows wtf he is talking about. Google reviews help too, here.  Get a copy of his COI, read that too. 
 

"you get to find out whether it's still in one piece or not." take a deposit big enough to pay for putting it back together, too.  It should also say that in the sales contract as well. 
 

"the next independent" mechanic finds some disaster left by the previous one and then it just kind of snowballs." Umm that would be your mechanic who left this disaster.  It was your problem regardless if it was for sale or not. Perhaps the buyer shouldn't look too hard, and then pay to fix that at the first annual?  
 

 

 

 

 

 

[EricJ]

  On 1/8/2023 at 5:35 PM, jetdriven said:

"you take a risk that it didn't get put back together properly or something got broken in the process."  Take a big enough deposit to mitigate that. And call the buyer's shop  and get a feel for if he knows wtf he is talking about. Google reviews help too, here.  Get a copy of his COI, read that too. 

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If you're lucky enough to find it or know about it in time, sure.

  On 1/8/2023 at 5:35 PM, jetdriven said:

"the next independent" mechanic finds some disaster left by the previous one and then it just kind of snowballs." Umm that would be your mechanic who left this disaster.  It was your problem regardless if it was for sale or not. Perhaps the buyer shouldn't look too hard, and then pay to fix that at the first annual?  

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I'm saying PPI mechanic #1 creates a problem that is undetected until PPI mechanic #N finds it.

 

[jetdriven]

 Then don't release the deposit until the aircraft is back in your possession and you've had time to inspect it 

[EricJ]

  On 1/8/2023 at 6:19 PM, jetdriven said:

 Then don't release the deposit until the aircraft is back in your possession and you've had time to inspect it 

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It's often impractical to open up an airplane as much as it was during a PPI after every PPI just to check that something isn't amiss.   Even if you do there's no guarantee you'll find it.  There is always risk with leaving your airplane with an unfamiliar maintainer, especialy when they are performing a necessarily invasive inspection.   Important issues may remain latent.    If there have been multiple PPIs done on an airplane and then some PPI-induced damage is found, it'll be difficult to sort out when it was done, so that risk remains on the seller.

The point is only that there is risk to seller, it is not all on the buyer.

[jetdriven]

Ive read dozens of stories on here of pilots who had a bullshit prebuy and had to spend a ton of money, and in some cases, scrapped out their airplane. Ive yet to read a story of a seller's plane being stranded in pieces or damaged during the buyer's prebuy.

[MikeOH]

  On 1/8/2023 at 7:04 PM, EricJ said:

It's often impractical to open up an airplane as much as it was during a PPI after every PPI just to check that something isn't amiss.   Even if you do there's no guarantee you'll find it.  There is always risk with leaving your airplane with an unfamiliar maintainer, especialy when they are performing a necessarily invasive inspection.   Important issues may remain latent.    If there have been multiple PPIs done on an airplane and then some PPI-induced damage is found, it'll be difficult to sort out when it was done, so that risk remains on the seller.

The point is only that there is risk to seller, it is not all on the buyer.

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Well, all I've got to say is that I wish you good luck when it comes time for you to sell since it would appear a buyer is going to have a helluva time inspecting it

[EricJ]

  On 1/8/2023 at 8:20 PM, MikeOH said:

Well, all I've got to say is that I wish you good luck when it comes time for you to sell since it would appear a buyer is going to have a helluva time inspecting it

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How so?   People are gonna do PPIs.   Being aware that there are risks involved for the seller doesn't change that.

[MikeOH]

  On 1/8/2023 at 8:44 PM, EricJ said:

How so?   People are gonna do PPIs.   Being aware that there are risks involved for the seller doesn't change that.

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Merely that there are difficult sellers as well as difficult buyers.  Your prior posts seem to indicate that, ahem, you might be not as willing, shall we say, as other sellers to allow a thorough inspection at the mechanic of the buyer's choice without a lot of written conditions and a sizable non-refundable deposit.  That type of policy could conceivably reduce your pool of buyers...just sayin'

[EricJ]

  On 1/8/2023 at 9:11 PM, MikeOH said:

Merely that there are difficult sellers as well as difficult buyers.  Your prior posts seem to indicate that, ahem, you might be not as willing, shall we say, as other sellers to allow a thorough inspection at the mechanic of the buyer's choice without a lot of written conditions and a sizable non-refundable deposit.  That type of policy could conceivably reduce your pool of buyers...just sayin'

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Nothing in what I wrote should imply that, as I was only addressing a previous statement that there is no risk to sellers.    There is.   A buyer has a reasonable expectation to be able to do a thorough PPI, since an aircraft is a large investment with an important safety aspect to it.   Any invasive inspection, which a PPI *should* be, is going to introduce risk, and that risk will be on the seller if the buyer bails and any PPI-induced damage winds up being latent.   It just comes with the territory, but there is definitely risk to the seller.

[steingar]

  On 1/5/2023 at 1:50 AM, 1980Mooney said:

There is no reason to feel insulted. There are any number of reasons why someone might have second thoughts about buying a plane which don’t have anything to do with something you said, your specific plane or you personally. Let’s face it - flying carries risk and buying a plane is one of the largest nonessential financial commitments one can make. 

Maybe:

- He spoke to his insurance agent

- Maybe his partner (potential co-owner) said “No fricking way and It’s the Mooney or me”

- Maybe he is stretching financially and the realization that the plane could need expensive repairs sooner than later (like the bladders) was a “wake-up call” that he can’t afford a plane after all. 

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I wasn't insulted at all about the buyer.  Like I said, I suspect he got deployed.  Even if he got scared off, or whatever that's fine.  Sux for me, but that's life.

I was insulted when the mechanic insinuated that I was trying to pull a fast one.  I have done my utmost to represent my airplane as honestly as I can.  I'm not shy about its squawks.

I suspect the airplane isn't going anywhere before Spring.  I think winter a crap time to sell an airplane.

 

[1980Mooney]

  On 1/20/2023 at 4:02 PM, steingar said:

I wasn't insulted at all about the buyer.  Like I said, I suspect he got deployed.  Even if he got scared off, or whatever that's fine.  Sux for me, but that's life.

I was insulted when the mechanic insinuated that I was trying to pull a fast one.  I have done my utmost to represent my airplane as honestly as I can.  I'm not shy about its squawks.

I suspect the airplane isn't going anywhere before Spring.  I think winter a crap time to sell an airplane.

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Your comment about selling in winter has merit in most years but if you think a recession is inevitable as Amazon, Microsoft, Google etc think then now is better. Otherwise you will be catching a falling knife for another year or so waiting for the economy to recover. 

[A64Pilot]

  On 1/8/2023 at 6:19 PM, jetdriven said:

 Then don't release the deposit until the aircraft is back in your possession and you've had time to inspect it 

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Say I’m the buyer, 

First the aircraft never left your possession, surely a seller doesn’t let someone fly off with their airplane?

But secondly if the inspector messed something up, your beef is with them, not me, unless I was the inspector.

I don’t think you could hold me liable for the actions of an FAA licensed mechanic, unless of course I’m the mechanic?

I’ve never actually given someone a deposit when I’ve bought anything, it’s always been in Escrow, with some kind of provisions that I can’t honestly quote, but if memory serves it would be exceedingly difficult to lose your deposit, basically you would have to sign a purchase agreement, then try to back out is the only realistic way I believe.

But the seller doesn’t get the money and me have to fight them to get it back, ever.

Do people actually write large checks and give to the prospective seller?

But yes, both parties carry some risk, if nothing else the seller has pulled the airplane off the market for some time interval, he could lose a sale that way.

[A64Pilot]

  On 1/20/2023 at 4:02 PM, steingar said:

I wasn't insulted at all about the buyer.  Like I said, I suspect he got deployed.  Even if he got scared off, or whatever that's fine.  Sux for me, but that's life.

I was insulted when the mechanic insinuated that I was trying to pull a fast one.  I have done my utmost to represent my airplane as honestly as I can.  I'm not shy about its squawks.

I suspect the airplane isn't going anywhere before Spring.  I think winter a crap time to sell an airplane.

 

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Assuming your up North I agree.

Down in Fl it may be the opposite as Fl sees a large increase in population in Winter.

Normally I believe in spring people just feel better, I know I do and I’m way more likely to buy when I’m in a good mood and Wx is comfortable etc. Plus you just want to go fly in nice warm weather, if it’s cold, overcast and drizzling not so much.

I have seen in several pubs that Winter is a good time to buy as people aren’t using the airplane but are still paying hangar rent and insurance etc.

The converse is of course it’s not a good time to sell.

I think I’d pull the ads maybe and wait a couple of months and relist when the days are longer and weather is nicer.