New Mooney Buyer with questions

[FlyWalt]

Hello all,

Brand new to the forum and about to put a deposit on an 85 231. I would like pop a few questions. I am a commercial pilot but have never owned an aircraft before so these might sound like newbie questions.

 

1. Does anyone have suggestions for a prebuy shop.  The aircraft is in Stuart and is out of annual.

2. Is a buyer typically limited to shops and mechs who are at that airport. Or can u negotiate to ferry to your preferred shop. In this case a 337 will be needed.

3. How much of a corrosion problem should I expect with a Fla based aircraft.

 

Thank you in advance,

Walt

[gregwatts]

Call Phil Jimenez.....PJ Aircraft.....he is located at KAVO but he may even know the airplane. As the buyer....you choose your own shop for prebuy. If it is a Scott Macdonald plane, Scott probably knows Phil.

954-868-3319

There are many on this forum that can vouch for Phil.

[tony]

You'll need a one time waiver to ferry it.  I don't think the current owner will agree to that because if you decide not to purchase then his airplane is kinda stuck.  Is this a hanger queen and doesnt fly much?

[smccray]

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1985-MOONEY-M20K-231/1225029.htm?

Why exactly do you need a 337 for a ferry?  You'll need a mechanic to sign off on the ferry permit, so it might be easier to just bring the mechanic to the plane.

There's an SB for aircraft prior to ~1987 to re-up the corosion proofing.  With missing logs prior to 2005 there probably won't be good records on SB compliance.  The plane is at least 12 months out of annual and I wouldn't expect it's been well taken care of for at least the last year, probably the last two years+.  It's 1600 SMOH, so 400 hrs from TBO.  If it hasn't had a top overhaul, the TSIO 360 has a reputation of requiring new jugs during their life, but I'm sure there are exceptions.  Engines usually last longer when their run regularly- I would expect this plane to need a new engine within the first year of ownership and if the engine lasts longer call it a bonus.

Unless the plane is absolutely perfect for your needs or the contract price is well below market I would pass.  Frankly I wouldn't put a deposit down unless it's in an escrow account and you can get out for any reason with all funds coming back to you.  You might consider including a clause in your purchase contract that the seller pays for the inspection if s/he doesn't want to repair any airworthiness items, or if there's any corrosion found in the engine.

Keep one thing in mind- despite what the broker would have you believe, there's no such thing as a good deal in buying a plane.  Either you pay now (acquisition price) or you pay later (repairs and upgrades).  If you're in FLA, take a look at the 1984 K model the same broker has listed.  Yes it's a higher acqusition price... but you pay now or you pay later.  After you put another $30k into N928MB you're not that far off considering the upgrades on the '84.

[Cruiser]

I would get as much history about the plane as possible (log books) local knowledge etc. If the plane has been maintained locally I would want a "fresh pair" of eyes looking at the prebuy.

Preferrable a knowledgeable Mooney shop. I am sure some local members will jump in here with recommendations.

As for getting the plane off the premises, the owner will have to agree and you should have a clear understanding of who will pay for what up front and in writing.

It is routine for the FAA to issue ferry permits to get a plane to service but if the owner doesn't want or can't put the plane back in airworthy condition I don't know how the FAA would feel about issuing another to fly it back?

[tony]

Quote: Cruiser

It is routine for the FAA to issue ferry permits to get a plane to service but if the owner doesn't want or can't put the plane back in airworthy condition I don't know how the FAA would feel about issuing another to fly it back?

[jetdriven]

If its really missing logs and the engine is at TBO AND its out of annual then the value of it is rapidly approaching zero.  I have seen "in annual" 231s runout for 65K.

Think of it this way, its base value is somewhere in the 80K range, but its runout on egine and prop(-40K), missing logs (-20K), out of annual in Stuart FL (right on the most corrosive coast in the USA) -20K.    Hell, buy it as is and part it out.  I want the ailerons and elevators.

 

To gauge the seller's interest, think on this, It is runout, missing some logs, and the last annual was 3 years ago.  Make a full price offer with fresh annual. Not a "taxi by" annual, but a real MSC or a "no BS shop" annual.  If they balk, ask them why they don;t just anunual it themselves and offer it as an airworthy aircraft?   Doesn't take a Jimmy Garrison to figure out why.

 

Also, does anyone ele feel he is asking "2005" top of the market prices for his other planes?  167K for a 1974 A36? 129K for a 1984 252?   160K for a 1986 252???

[gregwatts]

A major OH is probably going to be more than $30K and I would expect at a minimum of a $10K annual........it ran out in 2010 which means last annual was in 2009.

Un less you can steal that airplane.........there are others!

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: jetdriven

If its really missing logs and the engine is at TBO AND its out of annual then the value of it is rapidly approaching zero.  I have seen "in annual" 231s runout for 65K.

 

 

This plane isn't a can of worms, it's barrel of snakes.  I would tred cautiously.  $65K is pipedream money for this bird.  It might be worth alittle more than salvage value if the owner can find a local A&P to sign off an "annual" for no other purpose than to make it legal to fly to a reputable MSC.  Once there they can look it over and to find out what's really wrong with it.

[smccray]

Quote: jetdriven

Also, does anyone ele feel he is asking "2005" top of the market prices for his other planes?  167K for a 1974 A36? 129K for a 1984 252?   160K for a 1986 252???

[triple8s]

Whether it be vehicles, boats, horses, or planes; if you pay next to nothing, expect very little and get a pleasant surprise that's one thing. The known negatives are: 1. out of annual for more than a month or so  2. 20 years of unknown history (missing logs) 3. runout engine  Ok the positives: 1. Radios??? 2. Paint??? 3. Interior???   I guess my point is without logs, FWF @ TBO and an unknown history, you have what could very well be an expensive project. I would rather buy a plane with "known" damage repaired properly that is IN annual, has ALL the logs (airframe engine & prop) and know what I'm buying. I would be hard pressed to buy ANY Mooney that wasnt hangared and is over 10 yrs old without pulling off interior panels.

For what its worth something you ought to consider; what are you going to use this airplane for? There are many different models each fill a different mission a little better than the other. Ask yourself how many SOB for most trips, how much baggage for most trips, average trip length and so on. Two SOB and bags on the east coast a nice J or an E is hard to beat.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: GeorgePerry

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: FlyWalt

Hello all,

Brand new to the forum and about to put a deposit on an 85 231. I would like pop a few questions. I am a commercial pilot but have never owned an aircraft before so these might sound like newbie questions.

 

1. Does anyone have suggestions for a prebuy shop.  The aircraft is in Stuart and is out of annual.

2. Is a buyer typically limited to shops and mechs who are at that airport. Or can u negotiate to ferry to your preferred shop. In this case a 337 will be needed.

3. How much of a corrosion problem should I expect with a Fla based aircraft.

 

Thank you in advance,

Walt

[bnicolette]

Quote: 201-FLYER

 

I'm in St.Augustine.  If your in the area your more then welcome to come by and take a look at a good example of a 231.  Dont let price be your only deciding factor. It will be worth your time

[PTK]

Lets just say it has some permanent baggage making your useful load suffer a bit! But it does make the W&B calculation very easy!

Although if properly inspected, repaired, annualled and discounted, it is conceivable it may make somebody happy.

[Cris]

I'm not a great believer in coincidence so I find it interesting that the Controller Ad references the fact "the current owner has misplaced the logs prior to 2005" & which coincidentally is when the A/C sustained the major airframe damgae & was written off by the insurance company. Coincidence or a deliberate attempt to hide the incident? If it smell like a duck quacks like a duck then it is a ..... Walk away IMHO

[johnggreen]

I simply can't believe that anyone with $69m or access to $69m would be stupid enough to buy this airplane.

The logical portion of the discussion about this airplane ended with the words, "salvage value"; in my opinion.

It is a perfect example of why clean, well maintained aircraft, with no red flags, are worth every penny of the top dollar they command.

The sad thing is that this is an example of what is happening to the GA fleet.  Enjoy it boys.  We are in the last "great days" of general aviation.

Jgreen

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: johnggreen

 

The sad thing is that this is an example of what is happening to the GA fleet.  Enjoy it boys.  We are in the last "great days" of general aviation.

Jgreen

[jetdriven]

Wow tnat inflight overstress and convenient missing logs really makes it interesting.  I revise my valuation of it.  It has salvage value only.

[orangemtl]

Walt,

I'm neither a commercial pilot, nor a veteran of multiple plane purchases. I can, however smell a rat at 20 paces. "Lost" logs?

Run away.  My Dad told me 'never buy the first puppy you see'. This puppy has worms.

Welcome to Mooneyspace, and good luck with your aircraft search.  Trust the people on this site, in aggregate: they've enormous accumulated experience. Except for me: which is why I pay attention to them, as well.

[rbridges]

Quote: orangemtl

Walt,

I'm neither a commercial pilot, nor a veteran of multiple plane purchases. I can, however smell a rat at 20 paces. "Lost" logs?

Run away.  My Dad told me 'never buy the first puppy you see'. This puppy has worms.

Welcome to Mooneyspace, and good luck with your aircraft search.  Trust the people on this site, in aggregate: they've enormous accumulated experience. Except for me: which is why I pay attention to them, as well.

[Shadrach]

I'm not sure if the airplane is junk or not, being that I've seen many adequatly repaired AC give years of service after a major repair.  However, the owner/broker appears to be operating just to the left of shadey. I am curious what kind of preliminary conversation Scott had with you initially. The add makes it very clear that one should call Scott to discuss the aircraft.

It is plausible that the logs could have been lost... Ours were, long before I got involved in the aircraft.  A fair amount was paid to have them reconstructed, 6 months later the originals were found in a moving box.

This is an on condition AC.  The logs, even if you had them, are not going to add to it's value. It's a known salvage aircraft. It was either properly repaired or it wasn't...  The engine is a crap shoot, but the time alone tells you nothing other than what is likely to be discovered at prebuy. I would be concerned about the accessories also. An overhaul is defined by the FAA, but what people typically refer to as an overhaul is a much higher standard. Without knowing who did what, you really don't know what you have.

If you have the time, this AC could likely be parted out for more than you might pay for it. It would likely take years to do it though. 

[Cris]

Quote: johnggreen

I simply can't believe that anyone with $69m or access to $69m would be stupid enough to buy this airplane.

The logical portion of the discussion about this airplane ended with the words, "salvage value"; in my opinion.

It is a perfect example of why clean, well maintained aircraft, with no red flags, are worth every penny of the top dollar they command.

Jgreen

[fantom]

I'm not certain Walt is serious. Where are you located, and as someone who's never owned a plane before why would you even consider this bucket of bolts???

[orangemtl]

True: but let's toss around terms like 'stupid' a bit more carefully, yes?  Ignorance is when you don't know any better: I've been ignorant, along with every person in the world.  We all get a pass on ignorance, or more generally inexperience, from time to time. 'Stupid' is when you know better, and go forward anyway.  Walt's done the smart thing in asking the opinions of others, and is hardly a novice to aviation.  I applaud him for doing so.