Advise on buying

[Steve0715]

I’m looking to offer on a J.  It’s pretty ragged out.  Engine near tbo, interior is a mess, avionics is old.  So going in, I’m going to spend big bucks.  What am I concerned about in a prebuy?  Corrosion for sure.  Anything else I need to worry with?  It is in annual but only flown 2 hours since the annual.

How would you complete this buy?

 

[GeeBee]

Plan on spending 150% of what you are planning. You'll be ok.

 

[Fly Boomer]

52 minutes ago, Steve0715 said:

What am I concerned about in a prebuy?

I'll never buy another airplane but, if I did, I would do it knowing that a pre-buy won't find all the horror stories.

[ArtVandelay]

I’m looking to offer on a J.  It’s pretty ragged out.  Engine near tbo, interior is a mess, avionics is old.  So going in, I’m going to spend big bucks.  What am I concerned about in a prebuy?  Corrosion for sure.  Anything else I need to worry with?  It is in annual but only flown 2 hours since the annual.
How would you complete this buy?
 

I did the same thing, but it was going to be my forever plane, so I wanted to do the upgrades because I wanted it to be perfect.
Corrosion (make sure they pull inspection panels and lower interior carpeting to check for corrosion.
Request the plane to be filled prior to inspection, check for fuel leaks.

Save your money, do not have them checking light bulbs, avionics or anything covered specifically by an annual.

[hubcap]

When I purchased my 231 a few years ago, the main thing I was concerned with was corrosion. She was in pretty good shape but had spent several years in Florida. I am happy to report there was no corrosion. I would say if you plan for the upgrades and engine work appropriately you will quickly determine what you would be willing to spend on the plane as it sits.

[HawkGT]

I looked at several "project" Mooneys back in the spring.  The first was a C that was routinely flown but needed a lot of love and we found spar cap corrosion in the PPI so I walked.  The second was a Turbo F that hadn't flown in 10 years.  We agreed on price but couldn't agree on having an independent inspection so I walked.  I talked to the eventual buyer who indicated they were having problems with the plane.  I ended up buying an in annual K that hadn't flown in 10 years.  It has set on the ramp for 5 months while I  work with a mobile A&P to overhaul the fuel system and now it's out of annual.  The point to sharing this is only to make sure you buy the right project for the right price, with realistic expectations for what it will take to make it safe to fly again.  No regrets on my project but that's only because I have learned the hard way. Best wishes in finding the right plane for you!

[Steve0715]

1 hour ago, hubcap said:

When I purchased my 231 a few years ago, the main thing I was concerned with was corrosion. She was in pretty good shape but had spent several years in Florida. I am happy to report there was no corrosion. I would say if you plan for the upgrades and engine work appropriately you will quickly determine what you would be willing to spend on the plane as it sits.

Yes, corrosion is my main concern and perhaps undisclosed damage.  The plan would be to strip it down then build it back.  New engine, interior and panel then paint.  Since I can’t fly it yet, waiting on medical, I’ve got some slack time.

I need a cfi in the central Texas area…

[carusoam]

First… write a sentence or two of why you think this is a good idea…

If any of those sentences mentions…. It will save money….  

 

No matter what plane you are looking at….

1) Be on the look out for corrosion…

• Spars
• engine
• skins

2) Know what it costs to paint a plane…

3) Know what it costs to OH an engine…

4) Know what it costs to OH a prop…

5) Know what it costs to update a panel…

 

If you fix everything up to new status… the total cost is close to a new plane….   

If you like building machines… this is a fun project…

If you like flying planes… this is the opposite of a fun project…

 

Completing a purchase…. Often done using logic…

1) Write a purchasing agreement…. So many details, so few memory cells…..

2) Pre-purchase inspection… know what you are buying….

3) include details like what is in the PPI, and what is not… who and where the PPI will be done…

4) what happens when the PPI fails…?

5) include details about earnest money to hold your place in line…  a down payment to hold the plane even longer…

6) Know that the market has no patience today…. If you need to drag your feet, make sure the seller know that…

7) Add in some timing… it takes time to complete a PPI… and do the other things… expect to close within about a month…

8) Don’t rush…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Steve0715]

52 minutes ago, carusoam said:

First… write a sentence or two of why you think this is a good idea…

If any of those sentences mentions…. It will save money….  

 

No matter what plane you are looking at….

1) Be on the look out for corrosion…

• Spars
• engine
• skins

2) Know what it costs to paint a plane…

3) Know what it costs to OH an engine…

4) Know what it costs to OH a prop…

5) Know what it costs to update a panel…

 

If you fix everything up to new status… the total cost is close to a new plane….   

If you like building machines… this is a fun project…

If you like flying planes… this is the opposite of a fun project…

 

Completing a purchase…. Often done using logic…

1) Write a purchasing agreement…. So many details, so few memory cells…..

2) Pre-purchase inspection… know what you are buying….

3) include details like what is in the PPI, and what is not… who and where the PPI will be done…

4) what happens when the PPI fails…?

5) include details about earnest money to hold your place in line…  a down payment to hold the plane even longer…

6) Know that the market has no patience today…. If you need to drag your feet, make sure the seller know that…

7) Add in some timing… it takes time to complete a PPI… and do the other things… expect to close within about a month…

8) Don’t rush…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

I think the M20J is the right platform.  I want a 2022 model!

An afternoon conversation with Don Maxwell as well as the education I get here at MS, gives a good idea of the costs.  I’ll admit at the sticker shock on the price of a new panel.  

The buying process concerns me I’ll confess.

 

[carusoam]

50 minutes ago, Steve0715 said:

I think the M20J is the right platform.  I want a 2022 model!

An afternoon conversation with Don Maxwell as well as the education I get here at MS, gives a good idea of the costs.  I’ll admit at the sticker shock on the price of a new panel.  

The buying process concerns me I’ll confess.

 

Mr. Maxwell is an awesome resource… take good notes!

Another great resource is Jimmy G at GMax / all American aircraft…. See what is in his inventory…

I got a great lesson in ownership from Jimmy’s retired partner (David) 22+years ago….

 

I started with an M20C in Y2K…. My first conversations were with David… several months prior…

David filled me up with everything people normally do to minimize costs….

Buying the lowest cost plane… is definitely not the low cost alternative…

 

Find one that is currently flying, has enough avionics to meet your requirements, and get ready for that first year… The first year is when things fail… that you can’t find until your first annual…

Try to avoid needing an engine soon… or paint… or avionics….

A broken down interior is a low cost upgrade… that can be updated one piece at a time…. but until you get it done… everyone that flys with you thinks it’s going to fall out of the sky… 

 

During the PPI… take pics inside each opening… for reference later…. When you see somebody post a pic of what they have… you can check to see if you have it too…

My M20C was the wrong plane to buy… and I knew it…   I was a happy owner for a decade…

I had no prior aircraft ownership experience… the M20C was an experiment to see if GA and my small family fit together…

If I knew it was going to work so well… I would have gone M20F at that time…

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

Hmmm, from other threads and some quote I have received

Factory Reman engine - $36,000  New $60,000

Prop overhaul - $3 - $4000

Full interior from AeroTech - $20,000 Glass extra if needed

Paint - $15,000 and up

Panel - I got quoted $52,000 for 10.6" G3X Touch, with new audio panel (PS Engineering or Garmin), GFC500 auto pilot with yaw damper.  I already have a  G5, GTN650 and GTX345.  Without those add another $18 - $20,00 installed.

Other things -

Monroy LR tanks - $10,000 or so

Seal tanks - $9000

All LED light - $2500

And many more things you can spend money on.

[ArtVandelay]

Hmmm, from other threads and some quote I have received
Factory Reman engine - $36,000  New $60,000
Prop overhaul - $3 - $4000
Full interior from AeroTech - $20,000 Glass extra if needed
Paint - $15,000 and up
Panel - I got quoted $52,000 for 10.6" G3X Touch, with new audio panel (PS Engineering or Garmin), GFC500 auto pilot with yaw damper.  I already have a  G5, GTN650 and GTX345.  Without those add another $18 - $20,00 installed.
Other things -
Monroy LR tanks - $10,000 or so
Seal tanks - $9000
All LED light - $2500
And many more things you can spend money on.

Interior and panel prices are a little high, I’d expect $12,000 and $40,000 respectively.

[carusoam]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Interior and panel prices are a little high, I’d expect $12,000 and $40,000 respectively.

Tom’s working the late shift tonight!

-a-

[Steve0715]

Interior will cost 6-7. 

Paint..could be 20.

Engine, after a topic earlier might explore the io390 stc with 3 blade prop.

Panel, 60 is likely a floor.  I’ve been taking notes on MS.  

Supposedly no fuel leak but there are a couple of log entries addressing the issue.

Wont needLR fuel.  I’m a 3 hour driver and will probably fly around 3 hour legs.

Here’s the honest truth.  I’ll have one try at a first impression with my wife and, to some extent, my kids and grandkids.  I’ve got to do this well.  Money…if I don’t spend, my kid will.  My oldest is spending 1.2 mil on a boat and tells me I’m a CB.

added note:  with all that said.  All suggestions for putting together your dream J will be most welcome.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Steve0715

[Marauder]

I’m looking to offer on a J.  It’s pretty ragged out.  Engine near tbo, interior is a mess, avionics is old.  So going in, I’m going to spend big bucks.  What am I concerned about in a prebuy?  Corrosion for sure.  Anything else I need to worry with?  It is in annual but only flown 2 hours since the annual.
How would you complete this buy?
 

I got sage advice from someone who has bought and sold 17 planes in the last 30 years. “Look for a plane that someone loved”.

I agree with that advice. Either you pay upfront for a turnkey plane or you pay later to make it one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Steve0715]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Either you pay upfront for a turnkey plane or you pay later to make it one.

Problem with buying a “loved” turnkey plane is exactly that it’s one that doesn’t need rebuilding.  Depending on when I get my medical and when my project can be finished, I might buy one of those loved planes too.

[ArtVandelay]

Interior will cost 6-7. 
Paint..could be 20.
Engine, after a topic earlier might explore the io390 stc with 3 blade prop.
Panel, 60 is likely a floor.  I’ve been taking notes on MS.  

If you aren’t doing the work yourself I can’t see a full interior* being 6-7.

* full interior means new seats cushions/leather, rugs, leather covered headliner, leather covered accents, glare shield and seat belts.

Paint varies based on colors, metallic or not, number of colors, and complexity of the design. So take quotes with a grain of salt.

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Interior and panel prices are a little high, I’d expect $12,000 and $40,000 respectively.

Have you gotten quotes lately?

The interior quote was from AeroComfort for leather seats, exact number is $20,324.  Add head rest embroidery and it is $22,037.   Fabric would be less, $16,290.

Panel  (G3X w/ 6 cyl EIS, GFC-500 with Yaw, PS Eng 8000 audio, and install) was similar quotes from 3 different shops, $52,400 from one, the others were about the same.

[carusoam]

The challenge with buying a nice forever-plane…

Fortunately…. They don’t come up for sale very often…

Hector at aerocomfort makes the interior look brand new…. That is what they do for a wide variety of expensive planes….

Best regards,

-a-

[Mcstealth]

On 9/8/2022 at 10:13 AM, Steve0715 said:

Yes, corrosion is my main concern and perhaps undisclosed damage.  The plan would be to strip it down then build it back.  New engine, interior and panel then paint.  Since I can’t fly it yet, waiting on medical, I’ve got some slack time.

I need a cfi in the central Texas area…

Temple? Brownsville?

[GeeBee]

14 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Have you gotten quotes lately?

The interior quote was from AeroComfort for leather seats, exact number is $20,324.  Add head rest embroidery and it is $22,037.   Fabric would be less, $16,290.

Panel  (G3X w/ 6 cyl EIS, GFC-500 with Yaw, PS Eng 8000 audio, and install) was similar quotes from 3 different shops, $52,400 from one, the others were about the same.

Yep, I'm booked into AeroComfort in April. 23K for a complete redo with the good stuff everything but the yokes.

 

[Steve0715]

4 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

Temple? Brownsville?

Temple, Killeen. 

[Steve0715]

17 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Have you gotten quotes lately?

The interior quote was from AeroComfort for leather seats, exact number is $20,324.  Add head rest embroidery and it is $22,037.   Fabric would be less, $16,290.

Panel  (G3X w/ 6 cyl EIS, GFC-500 with Yaw, PS Eng 8000 audio, and install) was similar quotes from 3 different shops, $52,400 from one, the others were about the same.

Does year matter?  I’m looking at a late model.  Maxwell said 6.  Since it’s my kid inheritance money, whatever..

Paul Maxwell said the panel could be 100plus.  Perhaps I won’t do the gns750:-)

[Steve0715]

17 hours ago, carusoam said:

The challenge with buying a nice forever-plane…

Fortunately…. They don’t come up for sale very often…

Hector at aerocomfort makes the interior look brand new…. That is what they do for a wide variety of expensive planes….

Best regards,

-a-

Aaron is now looking down the right path.  Why can I use emoji’s?  It won’t let me.

[smccray]

A J is a fantastic airplane… but add two more cylinders and make it an Ovation…

This won’t be a popular opinion, but I’ll throw it out there for consideration. The carrying cost for a 6 cylinder isn’t that much more than a 4 cylinder. Fuel burn is higher, but if you’re worried about fuel burn, slow down and the fuel economy (fuel cost per mile) is pretty close to a J.  Insurance will be a little higher due to value, and the engine cost will be a little more since you’ll need to budget for cylinders on a continental, but- hangar is the same, annual inspection is only marginally more expensive.  I won’t mince words- the long body operating cost will be more than a J, but not that much more. Biggest cost difference is likely cost of capital (principal invested or debt)- and you get that back when you sell. 
 

You’re talking about a $100k upgrade to the plane.  I suspect you recover a little more of your investment when you sell with the big bore engine. Why?  Because the market is bigger. How many sr22s are sold vs sr 20s?  Why did Mooney discontinue the J In the 90s?  People want speed in a traveling airplane.
 

You’re Texas based- the io550 gives you the option for A/c. That was a requirement when I upgraded my J.

okay… let me have it…