Advise on buying

[Steve0715]

Just now, Steve0715 said:

@Parkerwon’t insure me…

@carusoam told me I couldn’t keep up.

my first post on MS I said I wanted the ovation.  Now, based on my recent interest, my son want to start flying.  His company will foot the bill, I think he’d want turbo though.  His business is nationwide.  I’m thinking bravo, or even acclaim at some point.  

 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, Steve0715 said:

Aaron is now looking down the right path.  Why can I use emoji’s?  It won’t let me.

Use the emojis available at the top of the writing panel… (within MS)

Don’t use the keyboard ones… (external to MS)

Using the wrong ones confuses the MS board software…

 

-a-

[Pinecone]

7 hours ago, Steve0715 said:

Does year matter?  I’m looking at a late model.  Maxwell said 6.  Since it’s my kid inheritance money, whatever..

Paul Maxwell said the panel could be 100plus.  Perhaps I won’t do the gns750:-)

This was for a 1986 252.

Yes, panel could go over $100K.  I already have a GTN650 and GTX345.

If I had to install those, it would be over $80K.  Add a 7" portrait display on the left side and replace the King 165 with a GNC255, over $100K is easy.

[ArtVandelay]

On 9/9/2022 at 2:57 AM, Pinecone said:

Have you gotten quotes lately?
The interior quote was from AeroComfort for leather seats, exact number is $20,324.  Add head rest embroidery and it is $22,037.   Fabric would be less, $16,290.
Panel  (G3X w/ 6 cyl EIS, GFC-500 with Yaw, PS Eng 8000 audio, and install) was similar quotes from 3 different shops, $52,400 from one, the others were about the same.

I had my interior done in 2016 for $7500, no embroidery, glare shield not covered, I did inflation calculation in my head and came up with $12k as a limit in today’s dollars.
I’m doing the G3X/GFC500(no YD or EIS)/GTN 650Xi upgrade right now…. I had some project creep but initial quote was ~35k. Maybe fresh audio and EIS would cost an extra $15k?

 I upgraded audio panel a while back,  but that was plugnplay upgrade .

[ArtVandelay]

10 hours ago, smccray said:

A J is a fantastic airplane… but add two more cylinders and make it an Ovation…

This won’t be a popular opinion, but I’ll throw it out there for consideration. The carrying cost for a 6 cylinder isn’t that much more than a 4 cylinder. Fuel burn is higher, but if you’re worried about fuel burn, slow down and the fuel economy (fuel cost per mile) is pretty close to a J.  Insurance will be a little higher due to value, and the engine cost will be a little more since you’ll need to budget for cylinders on a continental, but- hangar is the same, annual inspection is only marginally more expensive.  I won’t mince words- the long body operating cost will be more than a J, but not that much more. Biggest cost difference is likely cost of capital (principal invested or debt)- and you get that back when you sell. 
 

You’re talking about a $100k upgrade to the plane.  I suspect you recover a little more of your investment when you sell with the big bore engine. Why?  Because the market is bigger. How many sr22s are sold vs sr 20s?  Why did Mooney discontinue the J In the 90s?  People want speed in a traveling airplane.
 

You’re Texas based- the io550 gives you the option for A/c. That was a requirement when I upgraded my J.

okay… let me have it…

Ultimately the O gets you an extra 20 knots with the extra fuel consumption.

Do the math on your expected long cross country trips, see if the time saved is worth the money.

Be careful when you see the phrase “a little more”, that and “AMUs” are aircraft owners trying not to think about how much they’re spending.

And if you’re want to fly slower , why bother, just get the J.

[Browncbr1]

I can’t believe folks are charging 20k for a basic interior design.  Maybe I should go into business 

[kortopates]

I can’t believe folks are charging 20k for a basic interior design.  Maybe I should go into business 

Far from “basic”. Aerocomfort interiors are among the finest available. Basic can be had for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost and even less. But you can’t get the comfort of Aerocomfort seats for long cross country flights without spending the $. I’ve tried and just wished i did it right the first time.


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[smccray]

14 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Ultimately the O gets you an extra 20 knots with the extra fuel consumption.

Do the math on your expected long cross country trips, see if the time saved is worth the money.

Be careful when you see the phrase “a little more”, that and “AMUs” are aircraft owners trying not to think about how much they’re spending.

And if you’re want to fly slower , why bother, just get the J.

I agree with the sentiment!  But- there’s a gap in the assertion- why a J instead of any one of a number of other planes. Lancair or RV makes more efficient airframes, albeit non certified aircraft. Some other 4 place aircraft are a little more spacious, have more useful load, and are just a little slower.  So why a J over those aircraft?

There really isn’t much of an argument for the J in favor of alternatives mentioned above where the O doesn’t fit better. The J is slightly less expensive, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the cost delta between the R and the J isn’t a major factor. It’s very unlikely that a J is in the budget but the R isn’t.  The cost to buy a J then upgrade to an R later will be huge- likely eliminating any benefit to starting with a J. The delta just isn’t that great, and no one flies a Mooney (or any other traveling airplane) to fly slow!

I won’t last… but my 4 year maintenance cost on my A36 is about the same as any 4 year period I owned my J.  Fuel bill? Let’s not talk about that…

I bought my J out of fear of owning a plane. It was the right choice for me- my J took very good care of me. I don’t regret the decision to buy it. Life is a journey- but now that I have that experience I understand why most traveling aircraft have big bore engines. 

[ArtVandelay]

I agree with the sentiment!  But- there’s a gap in the assertion- why a J instead of any one of a number of other planes. Lancair or RV makes more efficient airframes, albeit non certified aircraft. Some other 4 place aircraft are a little more spacious, have more useful load, and are just a little slower.  So why a J over those aircraft?
There really isn’t much of an argument for the J in favor of alternatives mentioned above where the O doesn’t fit better. The J is slightly less expensive, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the cost delta between the R and the J isn’t a major factor. It’s very unlikely that a J is in the budget but the R isn’t.  The cost to buy a J then upgrade to an R later will be huge- likely eliminating any benefit to starting with a J. The delta just isn’t that great, and no one flies a Mooney (or any other traveling airplane) to fly slow!
I won’t last… but my 4 year maintenance cost on my A36 is about the same as any 4 year period I owned my J.  Fuel bill? Let’s not talk about that…
I bought my J out of fear of owning a plane. It was the right choice for me- my J took very good care of me. I don’t regret the decision to buy it. Life is a journey- but now that I have that experience I understand why most traveling aircraft have big bore engines. 

Certified vs experimental is apples and oranges, there are many who don’t want to buy a plane built in someone’s garage, myself included.

Have you checked the prices of Js vs Os? Os average in the upper 200s, Js in the upper 100s…so a $100k….that’s not slightly more expensive.

BTW, at risk of being pedantic wouldn’t you consider a Lycoming IO360 a big bore engine…it’s just not a big engine.

[GeeBee]

Here is my thinking and it came from Mike Busch. Loose a cylinder in flight, 4 banger you're landing right now, 6 banger you're limping and looking for a place to land. Having flown an IO-54O that swallowed a valve vs an O-320 that blew a push rod I agree with that assessment.

[carusoam]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:34 AM, Browncbr1 said:

 Maybe I should go into business 

If you do that…

The Texas leather shop would have tough competition!

Mr. Brown’s handiwork is memorable…

post some pics…!

 

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Steve0715]

On 9/9/2022 at 7:56 PM, smccray said:

You’re Texas based- the io550 gives you the option for A/c. That was a requirement when I upgraded my J.

I think I read that an ovation a/c could only be used in cruise!  Surely not.

You bring up a great point.  Buying and updating a J I would definitely be upside down and the wait time will make me crazy

There are always, it seems, nice ovations in the market.  And there’s A/C.  In Texas that’s a big thing.

[aviatoreb]

6 minutes ago, Steve0715 said:

I think I read that an ovation a/c could only be used in cruise!  Surely not.

You bring up a great point.  Buying and updating a J I would definitely be upside down and the wait time will make me crazy

There are always, it seems, nice ovations in the market.  And there’s A/C.  In Texas that’s a big thing.

There’s an aftermarket ac by Kelley  is it that looks fantastic.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Steve0715 said:

I think I read that an ovation a/c could only be used in cruise!  

Indeed that's true of the early factory air in that it couldn't be used on the ground because of AC inlets could pick up exhaust; corrected in later models.

[smccray]

14 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Certified vs experimental is apples and oranges, there are many who don’t want to buy a plane built in someone’s garage, myself included.

Have you checked the prices of Js vs Os? Os average in the upper 200s, Js in the upper 100s…so a $100k….that’s not slightly more expensive.

BTW, at risk of being pedantic wouldn’t you consider a Lycoming IO360 a big bore engine…it’s just not a big engine.

Okay- you’re 100% right. IO360 is 50HP per cylinder. Definitely big bore. 
 

the $100k more is capital cost, not operating cost. Yes, it’s all $, but there is a difference.  An extra $500 per month @ 6% interest.  You get the principal back when you sell. $6-10k in incremental debt service is real money (to me), but cost to upgrade from a J to an R is easily a $10-20k expense, plus the expense to bring the inevitable post purchase deferred maintenance on two airplanes.

I love the J. It doesn’t get any more cost efficient for a traveling plane. On the down side, the newest planes are 25 years old.  The ovations are newer and more available.  Plus- A/C without hauling ice- awesome. 
 

My old J was a hauler- 640 lbs with full tanks. Plenty of fuel sipping at 9 gph. One problem- my wife wasn’t comfortable. The R has more space in the front seats. It’s not a Beech, but the long body has some space advantages too. The Ovation doesn’t haul (legally) as well as the J, but it’s a hell of a plane.

Story time- when I was ready for an upgrade, I told my wife once per quarter that I was going to upgrade to an ovation after owning the J for many years. She said no for 18 months. The last time I talked to her I wasn’t asking and she didn’t say no- she just said not a Mooney. The best plane for any mission is the one your wife likes!

Edited September 11, 2022 by smccray

[carusoam]

On 9/11/2022 at 6:04 PM, Steve0715 said:

I think I read that an ovation a/c could only be used in cruise!  Surely not.

You bring up a great point.  Buying and updating a J I would definitely be upside down and the wait time will make me crazy

There are always, it seems, nice ovations in the market.  And there’s A/C.  In Texas that’s a big thing.

Very much depends on the year of the plane…

It was more of a avoid use during T/O…

So newer version didn’t get the limitation…

Unfortunately, I don’t recall the detail.  But, it is around here somewhere…

Best regards,

 

-a-

 

[Steve0715]

End of my saga.  I walked away.  Too many issues for me and I would have been very upside down.  Think I’ll wait until I actually receive my medical then work on a purchase.

[Shadrach]

On 9/10/2022 at 7:29 AM, ArtVandelay said:

Ultimately the O gets you an extra 20 knots with the extra fuel consumption.

Do the math on your expected long cross country trips, see if the time saved is worth the money.

Be careful when you see the phrase “a little more”, that and “AMUs” are aircraft owners trying not to think about how much they’re spending.

And if you’re want to fly slower , why bother, just get the J.

It is human nature is to find ways to justify one's choices post hoc.  People make different choices for different reasons. Calculating value vs purchase price is subjective. I find that with Mooneys, the more modest the model the more robust the performance per acquisition dollar calculation. That's why nice 50 year old C models continue to sell well. Some folks like newer or shinier or higher tech or more expensive for sake of more expensive (this one has always confused me). 

I've said many times that the block speed delta between all NA Mooneys is <30kts, probably pretty close to the delta between turbos as well.  If you want to go significantly faster in a Mooney, you need a turbo and a willingness to fly well above 15K. Of course if you're west bound, mother nature is going tax you hard on some days. 

Performance in terms of fuel and mx input can be more objectively calculated. In terms of the Mooney product line, I think the performance value of the NA 4 cyls and late model TSIO360SB mid bodies has yet to be attained much less surpassed. An empty weight power to weight ratio comparison of different Mooneys shows the differences to be meager at best. The long bodies do better at MGW, but that's for the best given most are likely closer to gross on any real XC trip.  With me (200lbs) and enough fuel to go 500nm plus reserves, the delta in power to weight ratio between my 200hp F (empty weight 1680lbs) and a 280hp O2 (empty weight 2468lbs) is almost nill (M20F= .09433hp/lb, M20R= .9430hp/lb), yet you read and hear things like "the J is efficient, but I just can't give up the climb performance  of mah big bore six"...

I wish people would stop saying "big bore". It's silly in this application. We're not comparing V8s... An IO550 has a bore of 5.25", an IO360 has a bore of 5.125", an IO390 has the largest bore of the three at a whopping 5.3". To the naked eye, you'd not be able to tell the difference without a measuring device

[ArtVandelay]

It is human nature is to find ways to justify one's choices post hoc.  People make different choices for different reasons. Calculating value vs purchase price is subjective.
Some folks like newer or shinier or higher tech or more expensive for sake of more expensive (this one has always confused me). 

The term is “rationalize”.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

The term is “rationalize”.

I know but I intentionally avoided that term because the root “rational” should not be anywhere near the airplane purchase discussion.

[Marauder]

End of my saga.  I walked away.  Too many issues for me and I would have been very upside down.  Think I’ll wait until I actually receive my medical then work on a purchase.

There is a guy near me who bought my friend’s J 2 years ago. He is still flying with a CFI because he isn’t able to get a medical. You are making the right decision on the order you proceed. Many of us are expecting the day when we are told to step away from the yoke and take our feet off of the rudder pedals.


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[affricate]

On 9/7/2022 at 12:43 PM, Fly Boomer said:

I'll never buy another airplane but, if I did, I would do it knowing that a pre-buy won't find all the horror stories.

TRUE!

[carusoam]

Steve did we ever discuss your flying experience?

Often, people arrive here with little flying experience, and enough bank to buy a Lear Jet…

I scanned your posts, but didn’t see your background…

 

If everyone knows more about you… the advice gets much better…

Have you had the Class III medical before…?

How far away are you from getting a medical…?

 

It looks like you may have skipped some steps… that are more obvious to people that have been hanging out here a while….

One of the usual things to be aware of… Is how long it usually takes to find the right plane…

In today’s market… there are so few planes available… finding the right one takes even longer…

Or if building one from the ground up is Plan A… get started today.

 

The good news… you have time in your schedule… start putting a plan together…

Don’t rush…

Buying the wrong plane… Like an NA one in place of the TC’d one that you would prefer… takes a ton of dough and a ton of time to recover from…

If you have never owned a plane before… Or have never flown in IMC…

… Getting the most capable plane on the planet isn’t often the best choice…for your own health…

 

You probably have a nice intro around here somewhere… (my memory isn’t very strong anymore….)

See if you can bring me up to speed… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Steve0715]

18 hours ago, carusoam said:

See if you can bring me up to speed…

@carusoam, my memory is also short.  
 

I’ve been flying hot air balloons since ‘77.  Medical is not required.  I’m still current and in a couple of weeks will fly in Albuquerque along with approximately 600 others.  Kinda an Oshkosh for balloons.

I first flew in my dad’s cub when I was too small to see over the dash.  He went through a number of planes including one twin until he ended up with a V35B.  I recall flying a lot while growing up.  In 1980 I started a business that was oil field related.  I was traveling a good bit so in 1983 I got my license and bought a Beech Sundowner.  After a year I happened to run into a 1980 M20J.  It had been repossessed.  I looked at it and bought it in a day.  My cfi said I would really enjoy it..I had never heard of Mooney.  I had to get it in annual.  Fortunately it was a good solid aircraft.  Insurance said to get 5 hour transition.  So I got that.  My first solo flight was from Temple Texas to Dalton Georgia.  The Mooney had rnav, I thought that was the best!  I flew direct nonstop 4ish hours…50 KT tailwind.  I took off after work and most of the flight was at night.  Flew the Mooney about 185 hours but business got tough and I sold it.  Bought for 40k.  Sold for 40k.  I always regretted selling it.

now I’m retired.  I’ve got 2 friends.  One flies a CJ4 the other Is my age and flies a CJ3.  Both balloon friends and have encouraged me to get back into flying.  My desire to get my own plane is fueled by a statement I make often.  Life is about adventure.  I’ve lived that.  I’ve flown all over the world in balloons.  Now I’d love to make more adventure by flying my own airplane.  Did I say that since Covid, I hate commercial airlines?

While not in the Citation class, I can afford anything that Parker will insure . 
 

My medical was transmitted to the FAA on 9/1.  My ame and cardiologist both are positive.  They tell me I should have something by 11/1.  I will go basic med.  I’m 72 and the clock is ticking.  I want 5 good years.  

I would add that MS has been very good for me.  I’m learning a lot.  Heck of a community here and fantastic knowledge base.  I really appreciate any and all help that I can get.  I am so many years behind.
 

 

 

 

[Steve0715]

On 9/14/2022 at 2:47 PM, Marauder said:

There is a guy near me who bought my friend’s J 2 years ago. He is still flying with a CFI because he isn’t able to get a medical.

That’s rough.  If I had a cfi handy, I would consider doing the same.  I want to work hard towards my instrument rating so the time would be good.