ATC reroute, reroute, reroute…

[KLRDMD]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:34 PM, gmonnig said:

Twice I had approach (PHX and SoCal) ask "what is your destination and where are you going?"

When I get handed off to PHX approach they always ask for my destination. Then when I'm handed off to the second controller at PHX approach they ask again about 90% of the time.

[jaylw314]

One trick I've found using the website for Leidos Flight Service is that shortly before your flight, you can check your dashboard and see if your requested routing was amended by ATC.  If it was and it looks okay, you simply copy the new routing and amend your flight plan with it.  That way, when you call up Clearance Delivery and they don't change their minds, they'll tell tell you your routing is "as filed."  I'd rather copy down the new routing from the website than do it over the radio or phone if I can.  I assume something similar can be done with Foreflight, but I don't use it

Edited September 6, 2022 by jaylw314

[whiskytango]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I think they are asking if your IMC or VMC, but they never use those terms for some reason. if your in VMC / VFR conditions often they want to get rid of you.

I used to always file IFR when traveling, felt safer, but every time I got into Central Fl the re-routes would start and it became pretty obvious that they had rather me declare VFR and I believe the re-routes may have been a way to get me to do that. It often worked, then I wouldn’t go IFR unless it was IMC, and it seemed when they knew you were IMC that the re-routes were a lot less prevalent. This was no autopilot and electronic charts so it could get hectic.

You raise an interesting point.

I have often wondered if in VMC conditions would ATC rather have me in the system as VFR with flight following vs IFR?  In central FL I have heard ATC basically tell everyone seeking VFR flight following to go away, they were too busy.  

What if I start out VFR and then need to get a popup IFR clearance?  It would seem that the ATC workload would be lower if they didn't have to handle a large number of popup IFR clearances in areas of deteriorating weather.  Maybe some ATC people on MS can give us some guidance as to their preferences.

[A64Pilot]

I think if the work load is high they just want you to go away, they need to shed some of the work so you get the squawk VFR and frequency change and or the long reroute that has me thanking them but telling them I’d like to drop to vfr and flight following. My guess if at that time they say unable flight following, they were trying to get rid of me, if the keep me on flight following, maybe not. Of course if your IMC it’s the long reroute.

Like going thru ATL, I’ve been IFR and routed around the Bravo, and been VFR and flown directly over the center of the airport, and been VFR and told to stay clear of the Bravo. Who knows?

We don’t often interface well with Jet traffic due of course to our speed, or lack of it, and Central Fl especially if you get near Orlando has its share.

If your pop up IFR I think the assumption is you can no longer maintain VMC, at that point they have to take you, especially if you tell them you can no longer maintain cloud clearance or visibility.

I’ve only done pop up IFR rarely, but know people who do it frequently due to inability to file and pick up a clearance where they are.

A whole lot of the FAA and I suspect ATC had just as rather we don’t exist, I don’t know when but I suspect the day we pay for ATC services is coming, think like a toll road

[ilovecornfields]

39 minutes ago, whiskytango said:

You raise an interesting point.

I have often wondered if in VMC conditions would ATC rather have me in the system as VFR with flight following vs IFR?  In central FL I have heard ATC basically tell everyone seeking VFR flight following to go away, they were too busy.  

What if I start out VFR and then need to get a popup IFR clearance?  It would seem that the ATC workload would be lower if they didn't have to handle a large number of popup IFR clearances in areas of deteriorating weather.  Maybe some ATC people on MS can give us some guidance as to their preferences.

It seems having you VFR on flight following might be easiest for the controller, but if I’m in busy airspace it’s way easier for me to go IFR because then I don’t have to worry about airspace.

The only reason I would go VFR in San Diego is to do that beach run up the coast where you have to stay under 500’ and you get to buzz the Coronado Bridge and Black’s Beach (do they still let you do that?)

[jaylw314]

48 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

It’s actually even easier than that.  Leidos will send you a text message with the ATC approved routing if you configure the website settings.

And unlike ForeFlight, it will do that for FREE.

The trick is amending the flight plan with the new routing before calling Clearance Delivery, because if you don't, they will read you the new routing, as opposed to "as filed."

Edited September 6, 2022 by jaylw314

[jaylw314]

50 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I think if the work load is high they just want you to go away, they need to shed some of the work so you get the squawk VFR and frequency change and or the long reroute that has me thanking them but telling them I’d like to drop to vfr and flight following. My guess if at that time they say unable flight following, they were trying to get rid of me, if the keep me on flight following, maybe not. Of course if your IMC it’s the long reroute.

Like going thru ATL, I’ve been IFR and routed around the Bravo, and been VFR and flown directly over the center of the airport, and been VFR and told to stay clear of the Bravo. Who knows?

We don’t often interface well with Jet traffic due of course to our speed, or lack of it, and Central Fl especially if you get near Orlando has its share.

If your pop up IFR I think the assumption is you can no longer maintain VMC, at that point they have to take you, especially if you tell them you can no longer maintain cloud clearance or visibility.

I’ve only done pop up IFR rarely, but know people who do it frequently due to inability to file and pick up a clearance where they are.

A whole lot of the FAA and I suspect ATC had just as rather we don’t exist, I don’t know when but I suspect the day we pay for ATC services is coming, think like a toll road

They could totally refuse to give you the popup IFR clearance, since you're still in VMC if you've been behaving.  It's probably rare, but I recall seeing a video where that happened.

Of course, if you're VFR into IMC, you have a whole other set of issues you're dealing with... 

[kortopates]

They could totally refuse to give you the popup IFR clearance, since you're still in VMC if you've been behaving.  It's probably rare, but I recall seeing a video where that happened.
Of course, if you're VFR into IMC, you have a whole other set of issues you're dealing with... 

Our SOCAL controllers are great with pop ups for wx. You may occasionally have to wait for 5 to 10 min during really busy times so don’t wait till the last second, but they get you into the system.
One exception is if you just took off VFR to avoid waiting for an IFR release. Then you might as well go back, land, and start over - since they know you’re just trying butt in to the front of the line.


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[Will.iam]

I did a pop ifr once. The laundry list of things they want was massive. Was much easier to send in a ifr flight plan for an airport near me to my destination on foreflight then call back and request center to pickup my ifr clearance that was just filed. Much easier less time tying up the radio frequency to get the clearance.  Or if i know wx might be an issue ill put out an ifr plan in the system but not pick it up unless i need to and it will drop out afer an hour anyway if i didn’t need it.  

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Our SOCAL controllers are great with pop ups for wx. You may occasionally have to wait for 5 to 10 min during really busy times so don’t wait till the last second, but they get you into the system.
One exception is if you just took off VFR to avoid waiting for an IFR release. Then you might as well go back, land, and start over - since they know you’re just trying butt in to the front of the line.


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I think that's true most places outside Class B airspace, I've never actually had a popup request refused.

I've also had plenty of times where I filed IFR, took off VFR and requested flight following, then changed my mind.  I think the quickest clearance I had was "cleared to destination as filed, climb and maintain 9,000".  Those are always nice.  

Edited September 6, 2022 by jaylw314

[BravoWhiskey]

I filed a long route from the Midwest back east and had the controller say hey you want direct?  Of course I do… then he says oh wait, Philly wants you on a Victor airways once you are near X waypoint.  once you are in a congested area it is much easier for them to keep you where it eases their workload.  Let’s face it, safer for us too if they aren’t overloaded…

[midlifeflyer]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:55 PM, Will.iam said:

Here is a pro tip for you IFR filers that i find works well for me including when I’m flying for an airline. 
when you get the dreaded ready to copy reroute phase, open up flight aware app and put in your callsign. At the bottom of the page you will see your filed route and 9 times out of ten it’s your new reroute flight plan. I showed this to a first officer the other day as we had a reroute from LAX to DFW and he really liked knowing what alphabet soup characters were coming beforehand so as the controller rattled them off it was very easy to check and verify instead of wondering what the next point was going to be. 
out of the dozens of times i have used this method, twice i have had a different route in flight aware that was different than our original but not what clearance delivery gave us. So it’s not guaranteed but great for when it works which is most of the time. 

I would guess at least 75% of us get expected IFR routings and changes in advance through our EFBs or out LockMart accounts. 

as you say, it's not guaranteed but works most of the time in most places.

[M20F]

Coming to KLZU you get the BUKHD.3 from the North.  I have taken to filing that when I come back from Chicago.  Generally Chicago center will clear me direct destination.  Then when I get ATL Center they give me an amended clearance for BUKHD.3.  Some days you can’t win no matter how hard you try.  

[gmonnig]

12 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

When I get handed off to PHX approach they always ask for my destination. Then when I'm handed off to the second controller at PHX approach they ask again about 90% of the time.

So weird, hahaha. 

[Will.iam]

7 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I think that's true most places outside Class B airspace, I've never actually had a popup request refused.

I've also had plenty of times where I filed IFR, took off VFR and requested flight following, then changed my mind.  I think the quickest clearance I had was "cleared to destination as filed, climb and maintain 9,000".  Those are always nice.  

That maybe the quickest, but the farthest clearance I’ve ever received was from addison airport KADS to KDFW. It was 02:00 and i called for clearance. Martex 667 you are cleared to DFW however you like land on runway 18R cleared off at C taxi to the gate, have a good night!

i don’t know if they were watching a game, movie,  or he just didn’t want to be bothered by me again but was a nice peaceful flight. 

[gmonnig]

10 hours ago, kortopates said:

Our SOCAL controllers are great with pop ups for wx. You may occasionally have to wait for 5 to 10 min during really busy times so don’t wait till the last second, but they get you into the system.
One exception is if you just took off VFR to avoid waiting for an IFR release. Then you might as well go back, land, and start over - since they know you’re just trying butt in to the front of the line.


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Pilots do this all the time in the Center environment too. It's super awkward when a jet takes off VFR to pick up IFR in the air to bypass a departure delay or slot time. We have a team of controllers (TMU) that are literally watching for that. "Unable IFR to (insert busy airport), say intentions." Or the ones that try this but file a close airport and try to amend their destination in the air. That doesn't work either....

[gmonnig]

9 hours ago, Will.iam said:

I did a pop ifr once. The laundry list of things they want was massive. Was much easier to send in a ifr flight plan for an airport near me to my destination on foreflight then call back and request center to pickup my ifr clearance that was just filed. Much easier less time tying up the radio frequency to get the clearance.  Or if i know wx might be an issue ill put out an ifr plan in the system but not pick it up unless i need to and it will drop out afer an hour anyway if i didn’t need it.  

This also works by just filing a VFR flightplan. The reason we need the laundry list of stuff is purely for search and rescue. When asking "do you have a flightplan on file?" That does mean and IFR or VFR flight plan. If you answer "affirmative", then it's super easy and your pop-up IFR will be granted. As long as we have a way to find you or call you when you forget to cancel IFR, that's all we care about. Happens every single day. 

[ilovecornfields]

Interesting what the variations are in pop-up practices. My home airport gets a rapidly forming marine layer occasionally so I get pop ups a couple of times a year. I’m almost always on flight following and when I ask for a pop up they just ask me if I can maintain VFR at my current altitude then clear me to an IAF a few minutes later. I’ve never been asked if I’m rated or equipped for IFR or any of the other flight plan details. I also haven’t filed a VFR flight plan in a long time.

 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

Interesting what the variations are in pop-up practices. My home airport gets a rapidly forming marine layer occasionally so I get pop ups a couple of times a year. I’m almost always on flight following and when I ask for a pop up they just ask me if I can maintain VFR at my current altitude then clear me to an IAF a few minutes later. I’ve never been asked if I’m rated or equipped for IFR or any of the other flight plan details. I also haven’t filed a VFR flight plan in a long time.

 

I file VFR plans all the time, but mainly so I can prove I got a weather briefing  I usually just get flight following and don't activate it if I'm VFR

Sometimes if I file an IFR plan just in case, it'll cause a bit of confusion when I pick up flight following, and I'll have to clarify that I really don't need to pick up the IFR clearance because it's sitting right in front of them.

I recall once taking off after filling an IFR plan, and then just deciding to putz around VFR for a while.  A couple minutes after taking off, Approach called me in the blind and asked if I was up on the frequency, and to call them when I wanted to pick it up.  That kind of freaked me out until I realized they could see my number via ADS-B

[kortopates]

I did a pop ifr once. The laundry list of things they want was massive. Was much easier to send in a ifr flight plan for an airport near me to my destination on foreflight then call back and request center to pickup my ifr clearance that was just filed. Much easier less time tying up the radio frequency to get the clearance.  Or if i know wx might be an issue ill put out an ifr plan in the system but not pick it up unless i need to and it will drop out afer an hour anyway if i didn’t need it.  

Your describing a pop up IFR request with a Center. Centers require putting in the entire flight plan - might as well go to FSS where if you have a profile with Leidos they can put in in much faster. But Tracons are very different. As long as your destination is in their airspace all they need is your aircraft type and suffix. They can still get enough in to hand you off to a center if they have some time without a complete flight plan.


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[PT20J]

It seems that the culture regarding pop-ups varies from TRACON to TRACON. I used to fly in the busy San Francisco Bay area where there is often a status layer in the summer and used to get a IFR-to-VFR on top clearance from San Jose tower to get out and a pop up with TRACON for an approach to get back in. Never had a problem. Then, one time flying VFR from Kodiak to Anchorage, I decided to call Anchorage Approach to shoot an approach into Anchorage Intl. just for practice and, although they weren't busy at all, I received the reply, "Ah, we don't do pop-ups. You'll have to call Flight Service and file." I always figured the controller was an old timer who never learned to type. 

[kortopates]

I file VFR plans all the time, but mainly so I can prove I got a weather briefing  I usually just get flight following and don't activate it if I'm VFR.

it’s so easy and very worthwhile to activate your VFR flight plan via your favorite EFB or Text msg to Leidos. Activating it gets SAR looking for you typically about 12 hrs faster than without activating it. Getting flight following doesn’t really help as people think it would unless you’re able to call out when you’re going down which isn’t typical. It’s to common for controllers to loose radio contact with VFR pilots for them to expect you may have crashed. I had a Mooney friend on flight following go down mid day. The search didn’t initiate till late that evening at the request of friends. They found near where his primary radar track ended and right where pings to his cellphone pointed - the following day. If he had activated a VFR flight plan the search would have started at least 10 hrs earlier.


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[EricJ]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I file VFR plans all the time, but mainly so I can prove I got a weather briefing  I usually just get flight following and don't activate it if I'm VFR

I don't think you need to file to have a record of getting a briefing if you use the 1800wxbrief site.    My understanding is that logging on and getting the briefing records it.    

[Marauder]

I do find the differences interesting in how facilities handle these requests. You would think there would be some sort of standardized process. When I fly to western New York, they never want to give me a clearance on the ground at an uncontrolled airport. I always get this question: "can you depart VFR?". And when I answer "yes", they give me a squawk code and a frequency to call them when airborne. It is only then do I get the clearance. At my home airport, don't even think about an airborne pickup. I'm sure it has to do with LOAs and workload.

What my real pet peeve is why, with all of the computer technology out there, they can never seem to be able to provide a clearance that sticks. And then when you get this 10 waypoint clearance loaded up, you get "proceed direct to destination". There's gotta be some sadistic motivation in there somewhere...

[hypertech]

On 9/2/2022 at 6:17 PM, Danb said:

Recently had same situation, I asked for a heading while getting everything sorted out, I feel they understand workload issues. If you don’t mention anything they figure your on top of everything. Not a problem making them slowdown a little while you get organized. Today I flew into Manassas in the SFRA, on departure at 500 feet they gave me the departure procedure not on the ground while gaining my clearance, it’d make more sense to provide it in the clearance, even though I’m in busy airspace with restricted airspace all around departure just gave me headings while navigating through the SFRA. Great controller’s today at Potomac. Basically saying take it easy and request assistance while your getting situated 

I don't know why they do that.  That procedure essentially has two fixes in it and you may or may not make it to the second one before they break you off the procedure.  If you didn't have it in your clearance, they could just as easily have given you the one fix.  Its a lot easier to dial up a fix and altitude restriction than find the procedure, figure out where you are in it, and set it up.