Forgot to raise my flaps

[BravoWhiskey]

I’m a little embarrassed to say I forgot to raise my flaps from Takeoff setting during my cruise climb.  I didn’t realize this until I made it to my cruise altitude.  Question is, could this damage anything?  I did raise them when I did my cruise checklist, and they came down for landing just fine.  My question is how bad is this?  Could I have potentially damaged the flap mechanisms?  I will bring this up at my annual next month but figured I’d expose my failure here first.

[kortopates]

Depends on if you exceeded the white arc in climbing to cruise altitude. If you did it warrants inspecting them. but unless you went way over Vfe they’re probably fine; it’s not as a load as if you extended them above the white arc.


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[EricJ]

Don't think you're the first one to do that.    I think I've done it more than twice.

If it wasn't full flaps and wasn't very fast, you're probably fine.    If you're really worried you can pull the belly panel off and check for cracking in the stub spar around the hinge/actuator mounts. 

 

[Hector]

I think most of us have done that if you fly long enough. I assume you had takeoff flaps and so you didn’t hurt anything, specially if you are climbing. Once you go to your cruise altitude you probably noticed the airplane just wasn’t going as fast as usual with the extra drag.


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[larryb]

I wish our POH had separate speeds for take off flaps vs full down. If it did I’m sure the take off position would have a much higher speed.

[201Steve]

I usually dump flaps pretty quickly after positive rate and acceptable airspeed, just to get it out of the way mostly, but I have long runways so no biggie. I took off from a shorter field with large obstacles last weekend and delayed the retraction, outside of my typical routine. Guess when I noticed the flaps were still down…

only my 2nd mistake ever in aviation, though. =)

[ilovecornfields]

I’ve done the same taking off out of a short field so I didn’t raise the flaps when I normally do. Fortunately it was only a 20 min flight and I wasn’t going very fast.

Some people claim (and I disagree) that the white arc on the Mooney only represents full flap speed and you can lower the takeoff flaps at a much higher airspeeds. The people who make this point tend to be more mechanically knowledge  and more experienced than I am but despite this I remain unconvinced.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

Depends on if you exceeded the white arc in climbing to cruise altitude. If you did it warrants inspecting them. but unless you went way over Vfe they’re probably fine; it’s not as a load as if you extended them above the white arc.

I went to look at an Ovation to buy a few years back and the pilot who was an accomplished physician, but not nearly as accomplished as a pilot took me up for a ride. As we were descending to land he said he had to use the speed brakes to get down to flap speed, 140, and then finally he could drop the gear at 110.  I mentioned that I was pretty sure that landing gear speed was 140 and flaps were 110. He argued with me that he had done it that way since he took delivery new from Mooney.. Needless to say for that and other reasons I don't own that airplane.

[jaylw314]

55 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

I’ve done the same taking off out of a short field so I didn’t raise the flaps when I normally do. Fortunately it was only a 20 min flight and I wasn’t going very fast.

Some people claim (and I disagree) that the white arc on the Mooney only represents full flap speed and you can lower the takeoff flaps at a much higher airspeeds. The people who make this point tend to be more mechanically knowledge  and more experienced than I am but despite this I remain unconvinced.

I mean, that's technically correct, Vfe is specified for flaps fully down.  Whether it's smart to have partial flaps above Vfe is up for debate...

[ilovecornfields]

37 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I mean, that's technically correct, Vfe is specified for flaps fully down.  Whether it's smart to have partial flaps above Vfe is up for debate...

So, at what speed does the POH recommend partial flaps?

That is where I have an issue with that line of thinking. If the top of the white arc is 110 KTS, can I put in takeoff flaps at 120, 130, 140? Seems like if the factory thought it was a good idea to do that then they would have published a number. 

[jaylw314]

28 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

So, at what speed does the POH recommend partial flaps?

That is where I have an issue with that line of thinking. If the top of the white arc is 110 KTS, can I put in takeoff flaps at 120, 130, 140? Seems like if the factory thought it was a good idea to do that then they would have published a number. 

It doesn't, it's one of those things that nobody was required to test and publish, so they didn't.  Kind of like how there's no V-speed for the maximum safe speed you can stick your arm out the window--there probably is a speed, but you won't find it in the POH 

[kortopates]

It doesn't, it's one of those things that nobody was required to test and publish, so they didn't.  Kind of like how there's no V-speed for the maximum safe speed you can stick your arm out the window--there probably is a speed, but you won't find it in the POH 

Sorry but that’s not true at all. There are published V speeds for partial flaps - and even on some Mooney’s. But when there isn’t, which is most of the Mooney fleet then there is no permissible higher speed for partial flaps. So I’ll leave it up to you to look it up in the Mooney TCDS and report back here - hint look at the later J’s. Guess what they have that makes a partial flap V speed possible that the rest of us don’t have. BTW, For those aircraft you will find it in the POH.


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[jaylw314]

25 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Sorry but that’s not true at all. There are published V speeds for partial flaps - and even on some Mooney’s. But when there isn’t, which is most of the Mooney fleet then there is no permissible higher speed for partial flaps. So I’ll leave it up to you to look it up in the Mooney TCDS and report back here - hint look at the later J’s. Guess what they have that makes a partial flap V speed possible that the rest of us don’t have. BTW, For those aircraft you will find it in the POH.


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I stand corrected!  I didn't know that

OK, I give up, why do the later J's have a partial flap V speed specified?  It's not the same serial numbers as the max gross weight change, right?

Edited August 17, 2022 by jaylw314

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I mean, that's technically correct, Vfe is specified for flaps fully down.  Whether it's smart to have partial flaps above Vfe is up for debate...

I don’t think whether it’s smart is up for debate. I think most of us would agree operating outside the aircraft’s operating limitations is poor airmanship at best and dangerous to man/machine at worst. That being said, I get the logic behind it. There is no question it would require significantly more speed in the take off position to match the forces that are exerted when the flaps fully extended at Vfe. Combine that with the “paper work” changes from year to year (Vfe 100MIAS for 67F Vfe 120MIS for 68 F) and I see why people think it’s ok. I agree with regard to airframe stress but disagree with regard to airmanship. 

[steingar]

I was talking to another Mooney owner about my low flap speed when he mentioned that he forgot flaps once and flew clear across the country with them out.  They were fine.  Mooneys are stout beasts. I am happy to say that leaving flaps hanging is one of the few bone-headed things I haven't done yet.

[ilovecornfields]

9 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

It doesn't, it's one of those things that nobody was required to test and publish, so they didn't.  Kind of like how there's no V-speed for the maximum safe speed you can stick your arm out the window--there probably is a speed, but you won't find it in the POH 

Actually, the POH does have a limit on the speed at which you can have the storm window open.  I remember my dad telling me (after I did something particularly dumb) that the difference between children and adults is that adults don’t do something just because they can. 

You must have been fun as a resident. I can imagine you gave your attendings some grey hairs.

[kortopates]

9 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

OK, I give up, why do the later J's have a partial flap V speed specified?  It's not the same serial numbers as the max gross weight change, right?

They have a flap switch with a detent position for selecting 15 deg or approach flap position; which guarantees consistency. The rest of us can only approximate that position which I believe is why it doesn't apply to other J's. (BTW, nothing to do with the gross weight increase which applies to many more J's than the partial flaps V speed).

The question I wish I knew the answer to, but I don't, is why Mooney didn't continue that feature with the G1000 equipped Mooney's since the G1000 provides the equivalent electrical version of the detent position? I can only speculate they determined either there wasn't a safe higher flap speed for partial flaps in the long bodies or they didn't have the resources to do the certification testing. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by kortopates

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

They have a flap switch with a detent position for selecting 15 deg or approach flap position; which guarantees consistency. The rest of us can only approximate that position which I believe is why it doesn't apply to other J's. (BTW, nothing to do with the gross weight increase which applies to many more J's than the partial flaps V speed).

Aaahhh, that makes sense!  Thanks!

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, ilovecornfields said:

Actually, the POH does have a limit on the speed at which you can have the storm window open.  I remember my dad telling me (after I did something particularly dumb) that the difference between children and adults is that adults don’t do something just because they can. 

You must have been fun as a resident. I can imagine you gave your attendings some grey hairs.

My point was more that if you fly faster than Vfe with partial flaps, you're essentially a test pilot, but point taken 

FWIW, your arm gets REALLY cold if you stick it out the storm window while in flight!

[carusoam]

Summarish….
 

Laws of physics dictate a few things…

1) flaps down, in any amount, increases the forces on the spar they are mounted to…

2) That force grows somewhat exponentially with flap angle 

3) That force also grows exponentially with speed

4) Operating the flaps can create another method of damaging things… so slow dow, before operating the switch…

5) Older Mooneys have a lot of history of cracked stub spars and their repairs…

6) I don’t recall seeing a pic of a cracked spar on a LB…

7) Check your departure checklist… for things like…

• 1k’ agl
• gear up
• flaps up
• fuel pump off

8) Everybody has left these things in the wrong position at least once…

9) Similar to a gumps check… short, easy to execute… useful on every flight….

10) for the LBs, Expect the white arc to mean…. No deployment or operation above the white arc… because all LBs have speed brakes to get into the white arc…  if needed.

Inspecting the flap mounting areas is not too challenging… cracks propagate out from the mounting bolts.

Blended PP memories of all Mooneys… not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

My point was more that if you fly faster than Vfe with partial flaps, you're essentially a test pilot, but point taken 

FWIW, your arm gets REALLY cold if you stick it out the storm window while in flight!

I know a few older Mooney pilots that used the storm window like a smokeless ashtray back in the 60s. No smoking above 150MIAS.

[amillet]

Our 97J model is serial number 3394. The partial flap speed does not apply to the latest model of J’s.  stopped at 3078

[McMooney]

I've forgot once or twice, so quit using them on takeoff.  one less thing to concern myself with