Should I bring tools?

[bcg]

I'm going to go look at a C tomorrow to see if I want to put an offer on it.  I'm taking a commercial pilot with a lot more experience than me along to help me look it over and see if it flies right.  Should I bring any tools along to open a few access panels and look for corrosion, or would that be too much before an offer and PPI?  If it seems reasonable, what tools should I have?  Would a good socket set be enough or are there some specialty things I should have?

[Guest]

As a start crawl around the main wheel wells and look at the spars for signs of corrosion and fuel leak, no tools required.

Clarence

[kortopates]

those are mostly questions for the owner, he probably doesn’t want you messing with the plane till your a serious buyer and even then may only allow a licensed mechanic. No way to know without asking. But proper first step is to review the logs. Personally, I wouldn’t invest in seeing it till i reviewed the logs.


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[Mooneymite]

Be sure to bring a "buyers" compression tester!

That actually is a joke since a recently calibrated compression tester is about a scarce as an honest politician.  Thus the lore that buyers bring compression testers that notoriously read low, while sellers provide compression testers that read high.  A really good seller's compression tester typically reads 90 over 80.  

[bcg]

those are mostly questions for the owner, he probably doesn’t want you messing with the plane till your a serious buyer and even then may only allow a licensed mechanic. No way to know without asking. But proper first step is to review the logs. Personally, I wouldn’t invest in seeing it till i reviewed the logs.


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I've reviewed the logs. I agree about not bothering to make the trip until doing so.

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[EricJ]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

I'm going to go look at a C tomorrow to see if I want to put an offer on it.  I'm taking a commercial pilot with a lot more experience than me along to help me look it over and see if it flies right.  Should I bring any tools along to open a few access panels and look for corrosion, or would that be too much before an offer and PPI?  If it seems reasonable, what tools should I have?  Would a good socket set be enough or are there some specialty things I should have?

If it's okay to remove the cowl and some inspection plates, a screwdriver usually enables that assuming no screws are stuck or break.    Taking the avionics hatch cover off in the tail can be good to see everything in there.   There are a few inspection plates that are more useful than others, like the ones at the bolts that hold the wing to the cage and the ones just outside the gear where the gear springs attach to the spar, but if you don't know what you're looking for it might not be worthwhile.

Taking the belly off is revealing, too, but is a LOT of effort and probably best left to a PPI.

If you can get the owner to start it and show that everything in the panel works and do a run-up, that's a useful first-pass inspection.

[Fly Boomer]

4 minutes ago, EricJ said:

If you can get the owner to start it and show that everything in the panel works and do a run-up, that's a useful first-pass inspection.

Very important.  I paid for a "premium" ppi, and found that the "inspector" didn't do it.  I guess if there is a moral, it would be "don't depend on a ppi to find all the warts."

[bcg]

If it's okay to remove the cowl and some inspection plates, a screwdriver usually enables that assuming no screws are stuck or break.    Taking the avionics hatch cover off in the tail can be good to see everything in there.   There are a few inspection plates that are more useful than others, like the ones at the bolts that hold the wing to the cage and the ones just outside the gear where the gear springs attach to the spar, but if you don't know what you're looking for it might not be worthwhile.
Taking the belly off is revealing, too, but is a LOT of effort and probably best left to a PPI.

If you can get the owner to start it and show that everything in the panel works and do a run-up, that's a useful first-pass inspection.

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm flying 200 miles to look at this so hopefully, that makes me a serious enough buyer to get a little bit of a ride. I don't want to fly it myself, but I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, seems like it should be the same with a plane in some form?

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[Shmoo]

4 minutes ago, bcg said:

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm flying 200 miles to look at this so hopefully, that makes me a serious enough buyer to get a little bit of a ride. I don't want to fly it myself, but I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, seems like it should be the same with a plane in some form?

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Yea but you’re talking MooneyMiles now. 200 is a lunch trip

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Shmoo said:

Yea but you’re talking MooneyMiles now. 200 is a lunch trip

Double-digit Mooney Minutes.

[bcg]

11 minutes ago, Shmoo said:

Yea but you’re talking MooneyMiles now. 200 is a lunch trip

If only, I'm making the trip in a 172...  Better than driving but, it definitely won't be Mooney time.

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Edited July 29, 2022 by bcg

[Marauder]

When you look at the plane, let the owner tell you about the plane. If they were an owner who cared, they will share with you their pride and joy and be proud of what they did to the plane. A guy (or gal) looking to drop a boat anchor will be more interested in answering your questions so they can saddle you with it.

As mentioned earlier, the logs are a good indicator of what kind of steward the owner was. If you only find entries at annuals and nothing else, you’re looking at a plane that either wasn’t flown much or the owner let issues pile up.

BTW - as a long time owner, if you showed up with tools intent on opening up my plane, I’d send you packing. Let the owner show you around the plane.

When you go for the test flight, check EVERYTHING out in the panel. You can easily drop $5k in sorting out non-functioning transponders, coms that don’t work, gyros that precess too much, etc. Since you already know what is in the plane, make the test flight and the visual inspection one with purpose. Bring along a check list of things to check out.


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[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

makes me a serious enough buyer to get a little bit of a ride. I don't want to fly it myself, but I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, seems like it should be the same with a plane in some form?

Never fly in someones plane that you dont know.  Get the PPI first then fly then secure the deal.  So many planes claim to be maintained but aren't.  Why risk your life in some garbage airplane.  Paint jobs do not mean its maintained.  New tires dont either.  Let it pass inspection then fly.

What is his reason for selling?  Try to find a plane that is being sold by someone who did everything they could with it and are moving on to the next bigger more expensive thing.  If there is any distress in the sale then you 100% want a PPI before test flight.

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, Jim Peace said:

Never fly in someones plane that you dont know.

I would be suspicious of both plane and pilot until or unless I had knowledge or experience to the contrary.  That said, I can think of several planes and pilots that failed to kill me on the maiden voyage, but didn't get a second chance.

[bcg]

Thanks. I like to ask open ended questions and then shut up. I've found that a lot of people are uncomfortable with silence and if I don't break it, they'll just keep going and say more than they intended.

I definitely don't want to dissect anybody's plane, I don't have the skills to really know what I'm looking at. I also don't want to wait several weeks to get it into a shop for a PPI and spend $2k when there's obvious corrosion that could have been seen by taking out 4 screws. On cars it's easy, I show up with a scanner and read the computer. I don't have the tools to do that with a plane though.

The logs are good and thorough, annuals don't show a lot of repairs but, stuff is getting fixed in between. It's being flown at least a couple of times a week, which was one of the reasons I want to go see it. I was looking at another one but when I got the logs, it was really close to TBO and hasn't moved in 2 years. Even though that one has a better avionics stack, that was enough to scratch it off the list. I don't want a project.

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[bcg]

Never fly in someones plane that you dont know.  Get the PPI first then fly then secure the deal.  So many planes claim to be maintained but aren't.  Why risk your life in some garbage airplane.  Paint jobs do not mean its maintained.  New tires dont either.  Let it pass inspection then fly.
What is his reason for selling?  Try to find a plane that is being sold by someone who did everything they could with it and are moving on to the next bigger more expensive thing.  If there is any distress in the sale then you 100% want a PPI before test flight.

He bought a new one. It flies 300 miles at least twice a week, in fact Flight Aware shows it made one today.

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[ArtVandelay]

He bought a new one. It flies 300 miles at least twice a week, in fact Flight Aware shows it made one today.

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That’s an excellent sign.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Be sure to bring a "buyers" compression tester!

That actually is a joke since a recently calibrated compression tester is about a scarce as an honest politician.  Thus the lore that buyers bring compression testers that notoriously read low, while sellers provide compression testers that read high.  A really good seller's compression tester typically reads 90 over 80.  

I have one of each depending on who I’m working for.

Clarence

[philip_g]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

those are mostly questions for the owner, he probably doesn’t want you messing with the plane till your a serious buyer and even then may only allow a licensed mechanic. No way to know without asking. But proper first step is to review the logs. Personally, I wouldn’t invest in seeing it till i reviewed the logs.


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Our current j the seller wouldn't even let my mechanic and partner do a prebuy. He wanted us to pay his mechanic to remove panels at the direction of my mechanic looking over his shoulder not touching anything. Bizarre.

Edited July 30, 2022 by philip_g

[mhrivnak]

Bring a flashlight for lighting up shadowy areas in tight spaces. Take lots of up-close pictures of everything.

Maybe there's a local mechanic who you could hire for an hour to help you sanity-check some obvious stuff. That might be better than trying to figure out what to look for yourself.

When you get to a PPI, you'll ask the shop to look for the obvious deal-breakers first, and stop if they find something. If there's corrosion you could find easily on your own, they'll find it in the first hour too and call you to see if you want to continue. So I wouldn't worry about having a lot to lose by not spotting an "easy" problem yourself.

[McMooney]

No,  bring a big flashlight and a camera.    

look super close  in the wheel wells.

smell the cabin for fuel

hell, smell the engine.

look in those tanks

get the owner to fly the plane, if it don't fly don't buy.

make sure to go in with the attitude that it's the worst example of a plane ever built. 

DO NOT fall in love,  6 mos from  now you'll be complaining about an aircraft with only 1 wing.

go thru the logs, make sure the are as complete as possible. 

check the dates of the last few annuals, are they consistent.  oil changes?  other maintenance.

chack frequency of flight.   frequent good , infrequent very bad.

I had my plane annualled instead of a ppi,  rather pay 2k then 60k

 

oh yeah, then after all this, go talk to your shrink,  ask why you would ever do something so O*(I# stupd as to buy an aircraft 8).

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by McMooney

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, philip_g said:

Our current j the seller wouldn't even let my mechanic and partner do a prebuy. He wanted us to pay his mechanic to remove panels at the direction of my mechanic looking over his shoulder not touching anything. Bizarre.

 

While searching for one, I ran into one nearly that way.  Would only allow the PPI at THIER field and hangar.  Would not fly in 100 miles for PPI.  And I willing to pay costs of the trip and return (in plane or by commercial air).

[ArtVandelay]

 
While searching for one, I ran into one nearly that way.  Would only allow the PPI at THIER field and hangar.  Would not fly in 100 miles for PPI.  And I willing to pay costs of the trip and return (in plane or by commercial air).

There’s the fear that the buyers mechanic will either declare the plane not airworthy unless you pay $$$/drop the price or he’ll start doing invasive things like pull cylinders.
I’d definitely have to have language in the PPI paperwork about limitations of what the mechanic can do and returning plane to original condition.
Busch talks about not even calling it an inspection (because that has ramifications from FAA perspective). He would call it a evaluation, is the plane worth the money. So it should be called a PPE.
I would expect if a broker is involved, they would handle ferrying the plane and insuring the seller’s interest is protected.
If just kicking the tires, I would not allow any tools to be used other than a flashlight.

[Mooneymite]

5 hours ago, Pinecone said:

 

While searching for one, I ran into one nearly that way.  Would only allow the PPI at THIER field and hangar.  Would not fly in 100 miles for PPI.  And I willing to pay costs of the trip and return (in plane or by commercial air).

This is not unreasonable in my opinion.  As long as the seller allows you and your mechanic access, I understand a seller's reticence to ferry his plane "hither and yon".  A good PPI can take place in the owner's hangar; the buyer may have to pay more to make it happen.

Too many stories of airplanes being held hostage by the buyer's shop.

A ferry flight from one local airport to another, might work, but an hour cross country flight?  No way!

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Mooneymite

[Mooneymite]

If you want to know about an airplane, get to know the owner...