$50k for a F model?

[dmc]

As Ive posted before, I'm starting to look for my first plane and really like the Mooneys.  I have sat in a E model and tho it was nice, I would really like a little more room for the back seat.  So that puts me to the F and G models.  I'm not hard and fast on a price point yet, but $50k is probably the balpark price that I'll be able to afford.  I know that at that price point its not going to have the latest avionics or look like new, but what do you think I should be able to swing with $50k in hand. 

And I havn't written off the C or E yet, just would prefer the extra room. 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[DaV8or]

So, are you asking a question? Is it, can I expect to get an F for $50k? Sounds like you already know the answer to that, yes, you can get an F for $50k. If panel/avionics and speed mods are not a concern, then it should be pretty easy to get a good solid F for that amount.  Just take your time and get a good one. Don't rush.

[John Pleisse]

Late 60's or early 70's F....absolutely. I agree with Dave. Take your time. You may have to let one or two good ones get by before you really have a feel of what to watch out for. Tanks, engine, roll cage 208A-B AD, good glass, landing gear motor, prop..........all of your high ticket items.

[rbridges]

keep in mind, it comes out cheaper to buy a modded plane.  Although you pay more up front, it's much cheaper than updating the plane yourself.

50-60 should get you an F model.  By the time you hit 70, people usually start considering J models.

[gregwatts]

The market is in your favor. Be patient and diligent. Find the airplane you wnat....and then negotiate. Asking prices are sometimes unrealistic but don't let that stop you from making a call. You can get a 76 F model in that price range. I suggest that you establish a needs vs wants and go from there. It will be cheaper to get a plane that has everything you want already in it. Negotiate!

My opinion only!

[scottfromiowa]

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1977-MOONEY-M20J-201/1222200.htm?

If I had it to do over again I would do THIS.  At your buy in point you are going to have to put in big AMU's $...maybe as you want...maybe not (unexpected stuff).  Why not put it into an aircraft that has the mods and where you will realize greater return for your investment should you decide to sell?  I believe you will want the J at some point...if not why not buy in at a basement price (if plane is SB208 compliant, gear actuator is O.K.) I believe you are ahead of the game.  Poor paint on a J is in my opinion better than poor paint on an F.  If you want the extra space you get it as well as the 200HP fuel injected engine...same as the F, but with more airframe updates...that you will likely want/end up doing at significant expense.  Good luck!  Great time to buy.

[aerobat95]

Its a great time to buy.  I have an F model with just about all the mods and I have around 75-80 into it.  But, its in really great shape and I dont plan on selling it to upgrade.  I always get 155KTAS on around 10.5-11.0 GPH.  I bought my plane with the expectations that I will have it for a very long time.  I am not into keeping up with the Jones' and I also realize that I don't need glass panels and all the fancy things that bring a premium.  I would suggest you make a list of things that you want vs. the things that you need.  For me I would have wanted an STEC 30 but I don't need it.  I did however NEED a nice comfortable interior and I did NEED a low time engine.  Just remember....pretty much anything you buy is going to be leaps and bounds better than pretty much anything you can rent.  You can pick up a pretty nice F model for pretty cheap these days.  I would still say this reguarding J's that are listed cheaper than E's and F's.....if it is too good to be true it probably is......there are exceptions but in my opinion it would be a gamble.  When I bought my airplane, solid documented maintance was very important for me.  This will save you $$$ down the line.  Good luck in your search.....and as it has been said before.....don't rush into anything. 

[dmc]

Thanks guys, I guess the real question I have is, can I buy a decent F for $50k or less and hopefully go 500 hrs or more without having to put 10k-20k more into it to be a safe flyier.  $40k to $50k seams to be at the low end and I was wondering if at that range most expect to be putting some additional money into the plane. 

And I'm trying not to get into to big of a hurry.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

When you say 50K is about what you could afford I wonder what you mean by "afford"?  A plane isn't a car so the bottom line purchase price is not all you have to think about... please remember that.  The cheapest part of airplane ownership is the purchase price, from there things just keep multiplying.  No one on this board is going to be able to tell you or theorize that your going to be able to fly anything for 500 hrs expense free.  I would take what you could "afford" and cut that amount in half and look to spend that amount on an airplane.  i.e. I have 100K and will spend 50K on the purchase and have a 50K reserve for the things that WILL go wrong vice i have 100K and will use the entire amount on the purchase and "hope" nothing goes wrong for the next 500 hrs.

[jetdriven]

Yes, hope.  At any time the engine can turn up with a cracked case or the cam goes bad so be ready to shell out 20K at any time.  Most will not, but be prepared. Aside from that, a few minor things might go bad, such as radios, gyros, etc. We spent about 5K on ours for unexpected things in the first year but it is going pretty well now.

[aerobat95]

201-FLYER makes a really good point.  My plane is in excellent mechanical condition yet things break.  I had to put a new starter in just a week ago.....165 plus shipping for the rebuilt starter and a couple hours labor.  Thats just one example how out of the blue you can have a easy 500 dollar bill.  Oil changes aren't cheap even if you do it yourself.  And if a cylinder goes......not to mention if you have a GPS that you use for IFR flight you are looking at a 400-500 dollar annual subscription.  Also keep in mind that you will have to pay for insurance and depending on experience thats not cheap.  Also, one thing I didn't think of is the state taxes you could end up paying.  In Kansas if the plane was bought from a private individual you got a tax break and if it was over 30 years old there was a huge tax break.  I was recently transfered to Vance AFB in OK and I ended up have a 2000 dollar excise tax bill....even though I bought the plane while I was stationed in KS and even though I am a FL resident.  If you own a plane things will need to be fixed or replaced in the course of 500 hours.  Again good luck :-)

[jetdriven]

The single biggest variable in maintenance expenses is how willing the owner is to do the work, and the relationship between the mechanic and the owner.    If the owner is willing to get into the airplane he can do a lot of work.  If you drop it off at the shop and say "call me when its ready", expect a 5K bill for a few minor things, and a 20k annual.  My wife just met an owner with a couple year old 172, his first annual was 5 months, long, and get this, 25K.  No new cylinders, radios, nothing.

[aerobat95]

Very good point Jetdriven.....I would have had a 20.00 bill for my starter but one of the studs from the skytec starter was stuck where it mounts on the engine and I had no idea/way/tools to remove it.  I am pretty lucky that my A&P is willing to work with me.  My last annual ran me around $700 but I did a bunch of the work.  It would have been more as I am going to have to replace my aileron endlinks and I need to order a couple from Lasar.  I was burned a bit when I had a A&P replace my landing light in conjunction with some other work.  When I got the bill I was surprised that it took the A&P one hour of labor to put it in.......I would love to know what the 172 driver had done.......

[jetdriven]

He said "call me when its done".  Out first annual, we ordered 1200$ in parts.  Scott from Iowas and I are doing about the same thing, except windows.  Photos to follow

 

[dmc]

I have no problem with getting my hands dirty.  While I have never worked on an airplane I have done quite a bit of work on a few old cars I have had in the past.  I have a hard time understanding the prices being paid for some of the work being done.  The engines don't look that much different than the flat 6 in some of the old Porsches I use to own. 

And I usnderstand that these planes are old and even with a good pre buy there are no guarantees.  I just want to make sure I'm realistic with my target price.  Ive seen C,E,F, and G's listed from $20K to $80K and some saying they have put over $100K into the plane. I don't want to be one of the guys putting $100,000 in a $60,000 plane.

I'm figuring $2000 a year for insurance, $2400 for hanger, and $2500 for annual's.  And I can swing An extra $10,000 or so from time to time, but not every year.  I'm 54 and retired.  I live off my savings and investments and as we all know the market and economy hasn't exacly been great the last few years.  I'm just trying to figure out what to expect.

[dmc]

Also are there any years more favored than others?  Or any years to possibly stay away from?  Any must haves? 

 

 

[rubixcube2k3]

Can't pass a chance to auger this point in....Byron hit it right on the head when he said:

"The single biggest variable in maintenance expenses is how willing the owner is to do the work, and the relationship between the mechanic and the owner.  "

....Point is to expect the unexpected, but also establish a local relationship with someone who can perform minor maintenane or help you when you want to do it. A big bonus is an A&P who will help you to perform Owner Assisted annuals (found myself a great local guy last week amidst a crisis).

Just for numbers sake, I'm 2 years in and I shelled out over $20K in my first two annuals, and currently have an order in for a new carb and my second new oil cooler (looks like another $2-3K after fuel and oil hoses.). Still haven't replaced my carpet and installed a 430W like I set aside money to do.  Did I buy a lemon....no, but I could have avoided some trouble had I gotten a MUCH more thorough prebuy.

My transition instructor made a statement on our first flight together, and it still haunts me....His words? - "Every old airplane can be a B**ch. Will yours? Only time will tell."   Can't say that I've heard anything more true since I got into aviation....

The otherside of the coin  - I fly anytime I want (as long as it's vfr for now), and go everywhere I want.

Oh, and regarding $100K into a plane...there is a pretty interesting rumor going around about some guy named Fred and his plane "Mikey". Anyone else here know what I'm talking about?

Addressing your questions: "Also are there any years more favored than others?  Or any years to possibly stay away from?  Any must haves?" -->

Generally, when purchasing, you'll want to find the best value in age to hours. For example, I would personally take a 1976 with 3500hrs over a 1963 with 3000hrs, but would probably take a 1969 with 2500hrs over the 1976 with 3500.

Also, to avoid the corrosion factory, try to find a plane with a GOOD Corrosion X history. I would look in the Midwest and Interior states, some of the older planes with poor paint or a history of "ramp storage" can have significant problems with corrosion.

Jimmy Garrison gave a pretty good "Valuation" talk at last Year's MAPA Convention. He mentioned the fact that you generally pay $0.50 on the dollar for upgrades provided by the previous owner, but only can expect a $0.50 on the dollar return if you put the upgrades in yourself and sell later. Consider looking for something with an autopilot and at least a 430W if you plan on any significant amount of XC travel.

While the market is favorable, I would encourage you to keep chatting with current owners and getting an idea of what to really expect. I think 201-Flyer stated best that your initial investment is far from your final investment. 500hrs of flight can bring a lot of changes, and a lot of maintenance. I was initially advised to plan to spend half of my initial investment in the first 2 - 3 years of ownership based on deferred maintenance, hidden problems, and unexpected failures.  So far it's been right on schedule.

Good Luck in your search. Don't give up and don't give in until you find Exactly What YOU Want.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: dmc

I have no problem with getting my hands dirty.  While I have never worked on an airplane I have done quite a bit of work on a few old cars I have had in the past.  I have a hard time understanding the prices being paid for some of the work being done.  The engines don't look that much different than the flat 6 in some of the old Porsches I use to own. 

And I usnderstand that these planes are old and even with a good pre buy there are no guarantees.  I just want to make sure I'm realistic with my target price.  Ive seen C,E,F, and G's listed from $20K to $80K and some saying they have put over $100K into the plane. I don't want to be one of the guys putting $100,000 in a $60,000 plane.

I'm figuring $2000 a year for insurance, $2400 for hanger, and $2500 for annual's.  And I can swing An extra $10,000 or so from time to time, but not every year.  I'm 54 and retired.  I live off my savings and investments and as we all know the market and economy hasn't exacly been great the last few years.  I'm just trying to figure out what to expect.

[GLLinMO]

Interestlingly, I am in a fairly similar postion as that of dmc.  I look to be completing  my PPL in mid summer.  While earlier on I had looked into the concept of buying a plane to take my instruction in, when all was summarized I decided that renting and focusing on the task at hand - PPL - made the most sense.  However, when completed, I can see that by having ones own plane (own outright, share or club) will really facilitate building hours, getting one's IFR, etc. 

And likewise - for "efficiency" reasons, I am drawn to Mooneys - and have been since I was in school in the '70's.  Same with the older V-tail Bonanzas.  And as dmc points out - there are nice planes to ba had for <$50k.   The challenge is finding one that minimizes the "money pit aspect" early one. 

But as has been pointed out - an AA5 or PA-28 will cost less to maintain on aveage.  Would one of those make more sense?  One's budget is a personal matter.  But one of my questions is: What will be the best value longer term Mooney or Bonanza, or AA5/Piper?   To me - all else being equal (and it never is) I can see more value in a Mooney or Bonanza than AA5/Piper.  Yes, maintenance cost will be more (esp for the Bonanza unfortunetly) but if one values (even if it is a matter of "liking the plane more) than it's worth the extra cost.  Note - i have run some calculations on potnetial fuel savings over a year compared to a PA-28 180 - can help offset some of the increased costs.  

Will also note - when buying something with a motor in it - one of my criteria is "I need to feel good when I look at it".  How much is that worth (or will it cost me?) - time will tell. 

I am not near in the market yet - just looking and learning at this time.  While my flight school is basically C-172's, my CFI owns a Mooney J model  with his dad/grandad.  While I have not discussed this with him to any detail - need to focus on the task at hand - he may be a resouces down the road if I decide to pursue this option. 

[rob]

Quote: GeorgePerry

If you have to shoulder the financial burden alone then maybe you should consider looking for something else...There are some great options if budget is your biggest driver.  Look for a plane with fixed gear, fixed pitch prop, lower insurance cost and no hanger needed.  I like both the Grumman AA-5's and PA-28's as a lower cost alternative to the Mooney.  You can get a really nice plane for about $35-45K.  You won't go as fast as a M20F but the cost of ownership will be alot less.

[rbridges]

I can't add anything new to this thread, but here is what I've run into during my first 12 months of ownership.  The plane I bought was a '65 C model.  Heavily modded with 201 cowl/windshield/good panel.  Everything looked good during the prebuy including logs.

I guess the tanks were patched b/c I noticed a leak that got progressively worse.  Although a complete strip/reseal was less expensive, it worked better for me to get bladders($10k).  I also had to replace a capacitor in my audio panel($240), replace a diode in my King radios ($250)and replace a battery in my 430 Garmin($100).  Last week, I had my IA replace the 4 engine mounts due to a slightly sagging prop.  The local MSC quoted me $1500+, but we did it for less.

I spent nearly 20% of the plane's purchase price on maintenance, and that doesn't include hangar ($175/month), insurance, annuals, oil changes, etc.

Based on my income, I could afford a more expensive plane, but to be honest, I was concerned about the costs that could hit me along the way.  Just make sure you have a little wiggle room, b/c you don't want your pride and joy to be grounded for a maintenance concern that you can't afford to address. 

 

[MARZ]

Don't know his price but here is an example http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-Mooney-M20F-Executive-?cmd=ViewItem&item=200703383205

Radios could be better.   

[Seth]

$50k for an F is doable. I purchased mine in 2008 for that range and sold it in 2011 500 hours later for very close to what I purchased it for - right about $50k.

There are a lot of good F's out there that can be had for $50k, just understand that it won't be "perfect."   Know what you can live with, and know what you can live without.  If there is any reccomendation I can give to you, is ensure you have a working autopilot on board - it makes a huge difference.  I had only the wing leveler, which is great, but now that I have a true autopilot in my current aircraft, it is well worth having.  I hand flew the F from coast to coast, an autopilot allows you to manage more and keep your situational awareness up.  That being said if you do have an autopilot, practice hand flying approaches often enough to stay sharp.

I purchased my F with a 4-10 year hold until I either did a lot of improvements myself or sold it and purchased my next airplane.  It was very bittersweet to sell her, but she lasted 3 years until I purchased my M20J Missile 300.

Good luck,

-Seth

[pjsny78]

Quote: dmc

Thanks guys, I guess the real question I have is, can I buy a decent F for $50k or less and hopefully go 500 hrs or more without having to put 10k-20k more into it to be a safe flyier.  $40k to $50k seams to be at the low end and I was wondering if at that range most expect to be putting some additional money into the plane. 

And I'm trying not to get into to big of a hurry

I cannot comment on the F model. But I bought a J Model in June. I have put on more than 300hrs since then and I have spent close to $25k in repairs after getting a clean bill of health when I purchased it.  This was my first plane and never anticipated repair costs to be like this. It kind of feels like I am building another plane.

[danb35]

I bought my F 4 years ago for $58k with a new prop and fresh overhaul on the engine.  I've got about 350 hours on it since then without any major issues, and I'd say I've spent about $5k on maintenance (total) since then.  Of course, I spent ~18k on avionics upgrades since then...