2 Dead in Bonanza crash this morning in Buckeye AZ

[David M20J]

This one hits a little close to home, the bonanza was based out of the same airport and I knew a few people who were flying it just to keep it running for the owner.  I met the CFI a few times, he was a young kid based at the airport driving a golf cart around and would stop and talk to anyone he saw by an airplane.  Just excited about aviation and would talk to anyone that would listen.

 

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/buckeye-plane-crash-leaves-1-person-in-critical-condition

 

while I am a 3200+ hr pilot, I only have about 100hrs in fixed wing and 15hrs in my mooney, the transition from a 172 to a mooney was a learning curve for sure but I attribute that to my young CFI who got me my ASEL addon just taught me what I needed to know to pass a checkride(that may have been my own fault).  I hired a CFI who knew Mooneys to get me up to speed in my plane and insurance requirements, but after seeing this I think I want to call him again and go over accelerated stalls again.  I am not making any judgements or pointing any fingers, but from witness accounts in this article it just made me think of accelerated stalls being to close in to the runway and forcing final and not overshooting. 

 

wondering if other people had to transition their site picture from a high wing to low wing and from slow plane to fast plane and how they managed, or if you just get slow on downwind.  I was taught 105 downwind, 95 base, 85 final, 70 across the threshold from a Mooney CFI

Edited June 19, 2022 by David M20J

[hubcap]

I never go below VREF in the pattern until the runway is assured. I had this drilled into my head by the best pilot I know.

Edited June 19, 2022 by hubcap

[201er]

According to the article, it’s actually “A Cessna plane crashed in the desert just northwest of Buckeye Municipal Airport near Interstate 10 and Palo Verde Road just before 7 a.m. on June 18.”

[toto]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

According to the article, it’s actually “A Cessna plane crashed in the desert just northwest of Buckeye Municipal Airport near Interstate 10 and Palo Verde Road just before 7 a.m. on June 18.”

The NTSB tweet called it a Beech E35. Dunno. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/status/1538225512572665856

[DCarlton]

2 hours ago, hubcap said:

I never go below VREF in the pattern until the runway is assured. I had this drilled into my head by the best pilot I know.

Looked up the definition of VREF to make sure I had I right.  I prefer 1.3 VSO or higher too.  Not sure of the guidance which has folks endorsing 1.2 VSO. 

VREF

— Calculated reference speed for final approach. Final approach speed. Usually 1.3 times VSO or higher. Small airplanes: bottom of white arc plus 30 percent. Jets: calculated from landing-performance charts that consider weight, temperature and field elevation. To this speed jets typically calculate an approach speed (VAP) by adding (to VREF) half the headwind component plus the gust factor (to a max of 20 knots).

[Shadrach]

Not ADSB equipped.  Likely very little to analyze other than eye witness account. Sure reads like he pulled too hard trying to avoid overshooting final on his base to final turn. 

[DCarlton]

7 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Not ADSB equipped.  Likely very little to analyze other than eye witness account. Sure reads like he pulled too hard trying to avoid overshooting final on his base to final turn. 

Which brings up another thought...  that I've over thought...   What you described above is so easy to do.  I've never really liked the push to square off the turns in the pattern.  I prefer them rounded with shallow turns.  I some times come in to final at an rounded angle to avoid such a tight turn base to final.  Suppose dropping the nose too if you find yourself in a tight turn base to final is a good thing.  Alway make that turn with flaps.  Not sure what other folks do if they find themselves overshooting final.  

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Which brings up another thought...  that I've over thought...   What you described above is so easy to do.  I've never really liked the push to square off the turns in the pattern.  I prefer them rounded with shallow turns.  I some times come in to final at an rounded angle to avoid such a tight turn base to final.  Suppose dropping the nose too if you find yourself in a tight turn base to final is a good thing.  Alway make that turn with flaps.  Not sure what other folks do if they find themselves overshooting final.  

I’ve practiced accelerated stalls and I don’t think they’re easy. While not physically difficult, they feel profoundly unnatural to anyone that does not engage in aerobatics. I think they happen on final when a pilot is singularly fixated on turning inside the extended centerline.  Tight pattern, too fast, tail wind on base.. crank it over to make final, maybe inadvertently step on the inside rudder to tighten the turn and snap…the inside wing stalls.

I too enjoy a rounded 180° to final, but in a low wing, one needs to level the wings to get a look out the passenger side window to see potential traffic conflicts. I almost always level the wings on each leg of of the pattern.

VREF is for final approach…not downwind, not base, not base to final turn. It is for final. The FAR/AIM recommends 1.4Vso on base and 1.3Vso on final. However, if one wishes to land, one needs to slow down at some point.  In ground effect a given AOA produces more lift and less induced drag than in free air. So if you hold 1.3Vso into ground effect, you’re  now floating down the runway at an effective number greater than 1.3Vso with mushy flying controls (yaw, roll and pitch) and no ground control (brakes or steering).

At 15’ above the runway, stall speed is diminishing and a Mooney has lost ~20% of its induced drag. At 8’ above the runway, stall speed continues to diminish and a Mooney has lost ~60% of its induced drag.  These are slippery planes, staying ahead of them is a good idea. There is nothing wrong with slowing down prior to entering ground effect. Just don’t load the wing in the pattern.

 

[DCarlton]

25 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve practiced accelerated stalls and I don’t think they’re easy. While not physically difficult, they feel profoundly unnatural to anyone that does not engage in aerobatics. I think they happen on final when a pilot is singularly fixated on turning inside he extended centerline.  Tight pattern, too fast, tail wind on base.. crank it over to make final, maybe inadvertently step on the inside rudder to tighten the turn and snap…the inside wing stalls.

I too enjoy a rounded 180° to final, but in a low wing, one needs to level the wings to get a look out the passenger side window to see potential traffic conflicts. I almost always level the wings on each leg of of the pattern.

VREF is for final approach…not downwind, not base, not base to final turn. It is for final. The FAR/AIM recommends 1.4Vso on base and 1.3Vso on final. However, if one wishes to land, one needs to slow down at some point.  In ground effect a given AOA produces more lift and less induced drag than in free air. So if you hold 1.3Vso into ground effect, your now floating down the runway at an effective number greater than 1.3Vso with mushy flying controls (yaw, roll and pitch) and no ground control (brakes or steering). At 15’ above the runway stall speed is diminishing and a Mooney has lost ~20% of its induced drag. At 8’ stall speed continues to diminish and a Mooney has it’s lost ~60% of its induced drag.  These are slippery planes, staying ahead of them is a good idea. There is nothing wrong with slowing down prior to entering ground effect. Just don’t load the wing in the pattern.

 

I'll go pull the FAR/AIM.  Haven't referenced it in a while.  I'm curious about that section now.  Thanks.  

[Hank]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Not sure what other folks do if they find themselves overshooting final.  

When I'm laye turning final, don't fully account for tailwind, don't bank enough,, I just maintain the turn and fly back to the final approach course. If I'm too wide, go around and pay more attention the next time. Increasing bank angle is asking for trouble.

Also, my Owners Manual says to lower at least Takeoff Flaps when flying less than 90mph. Since my downwind and base speed is 90mph, I always drop flaps at or just before pattern entry, they also help slow down to 90 mph.

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve practiced accelerated stalls and I don’t think they’re easy. While not physically difficult, they feel profoundly unnatural to anyone that does not engage in aerobatics. I think they happen on final when a pilot is singularly fixated on turning inside he extended centerline.  Tight pattern, too fast, tail wind on base.. crank it over to make final, maybe inadvertently step on the inside rudder to tighten the turn and snap…the inside wing stalls.

I too enjoy a rounded 180° to final, but in a low wing, one needs to level the wings to get a look out the passenger side window to see potential traffic conflicts. I almost always level the wings on each leg of of the pattern.

VREF is for final approach…not downwind, not base, not base to final turn. It is for final. The FAR/AIM recommends 1.4Vso on base and 1.3Vso on final. However, if one wishes to land, one needs to slow down at some point.  In ground effect a given AOA produces more lift and less induced drag than in free air. So if you hold 1.3Vso into ground effect, your now floating down the runway at an effective number greater than 1.3Vso with mushy flying controls (yaw, roll and pitch) and no ground control (brakes or steering). At 15’ above the runway stall speed is diminishing and a Mooney has lost ~20% of its induced drag. At 8’ stall speed continues to diminish and a Mooney has it’s lost ~60% of its induced drag.  These are slippery planes, staying ahead of them is a good idea. There is nothing wrong with slowing down prior to entering ground effect. Just don’t load the wing in the pattern.

 

I agree that VREF is for final, but if you are at VREF it provides a margin of safety above stall speed when making turns in the pattern, since the stall speed is increased in the turn, which is why I have that number burned into my brain any time I am in the pattern. When I know the runway is assured I slow down to cross the numbers around 70kts ish. 

If VREF works for the guys who do it for a living, it seems like a good idea to work it into the procedures I use.

Edited June 19, 2022 by hubcap

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, hubcap said:

I agree that VREF is for final, but if you are at VREF it provides a margin of safety above stall speed when making turns in the pattern, since the stall speed is increased in the turn, which is why I have that number burned into my brain any time I am in the pattern. When I know the runway is assured I slow down to cross the numbers around 70kts ish. 

If VREF works for the guys who do it for a living, it seems like a good idea to work it into the procedures I use.

VRef is a speed based on calculated weight. It can be 1.3Vso or some other multiple or multiple plus gust factor.  I’m not so sure that you’re actually using Vref given that you reference a “slow down to cross the numbers at 70kts ish”. You fly a 231 with a Vso of 57kts at MGW. So at MGW 1.3Vso is 74kts. However, presumably you don’t land at max gross very often so you likely fly at the many useable weights at which a Vref of 1.3Vso would be less than the 70ish kts you reference for crossing the numbers. To each their own. I find that most Mooney pilots carry more speed into the flare than is necessary. I used to be one of them. 
 

If you go to the downloads section you’ll find a spreadsheet that I uploaded back in 2015 that calculates threshold speeds (VRef) by weight. It could easily be adapted to the 231’s 2900lb MGW.

[A64Pilot]

It’s inadvertently stepping on the rudder that will get you, and it’s instinct to do so, just like when the wing drops in a stall it’s instinct to try to raise it with ailerons, but that of course worsens the stall.

A lot of things are taught at the beginning that some will get away from as they gain experience, like tight patterns under the idea of always being able to make the runway should the engine quit, and square patterns and hitting x airspeeds at set points.

Now square patterns may be expected at busier airports and then of course you should fly what others in the pattern are flying. Once you become more accustomed to your aircraft you will fly more by feel than set numbers, set numbers may not work well on gusty days for example, maybe carry a little extra speed then.

For the helicopter guys transitioning to fixed wing the hardest thing to unlearn is to not raise the nose on final, but to drop the nose, which is very much opposite to what you do in a helicopter.

Supposedly the downwind turn stall is a myth, the airplane doesn’t care if it has a tailwind or not, my belief is the aircraft may not, but the pilot senses excess ground speed with their eyes and may get too slow, so maybe aerodynamically a myth, but in reality maybe, I’ve seen too many accidents to not think something is going on.

Often what gets people is a crosswind that is blowing them across the final course, they realize this and crank in more bank, and yes rudder. It’s rudder that will bite you.

Its bitten a lot of Ag guys, specifically 502 guys. Google “Airtractor 502 stall spin accidents” see how many hits you get. That airplane is not forgiving of out of trim in a turn, not a bad airplane, just need to keep the ball centered.

[carusoam]

Know your plan,

fly your plan,

know your stall speeds and bank angles…

Do not exceed your target bank angle…

Getting cross controlled is pretty easy to do when cognitively loaded…

 

use an extra safety device… like lowering the nose to unweight the wings… in the turns…

If the flying budget allows… the AOAi is a good device…

There is no reason to increase the bank to get on the arbitrary center line…

 

Easy / subtle corrections or GAs…

Prayers for the lost airman and thanks for the opportunity to discuss things to avoid in this case…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

VRef is a speed based on calculated weight. It can be 1.3Vso or some other multiple or multiple plus gust factor.  I’m not so sure that you’re actually using Vref given that you reference a “slow down to cross the numbers at 70kts ish”. You fly a 231 with a Vso of 57kts at MGW. So at MGW 1.3Vso is 74kts. However, presumably you don’t land at max gross very often so you likely fly at the many useable weights at which a Vref of 1.3Vso would be less than the 70ish kts you reference for crossing the numbers. To each their own. I find that most Mooney pilots carry more speed in to the flare than is necessary. I used to be one of them. 
 

If you go to the downloads section you’ll find a spreadsheet that I uploaded back in 2015 that calculates threshold speeds (VRef) by weight. It could easily be adapted to the 231’s 2900lb MGW.

Agreed. VREF in my aircraft is 74kts, at Max Gross Weight. Yes, VREF goes down as the weight goes down. I think that having a hard number not to descend below provides a margin of safety that others do not seem to be practicing. Otherwise why do they keep doing the stall/spin into the ground? 

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, hubcap said:

Agreed. VREF in my aircraft is 74kts, at Max Gross Weight. Yes, VREF goes down as the weight goes down. I think that having a hard number not to descend below provides a margin of safety that others do not seem to be practicing. Otherwise why do they keep doing the stall/spin into the ground? 

I searched the the database many years ago and found that far more Mooneys end up with porpoise prop strikes or leave the departure end of the runway in a cloud of tire smoke, or stall/spin after a botched go around than come up short on final. My airport has had three Mooney RLOC incidents due to lack of speed control in my lifetime. Actually 4 but one was the same guy doing it twice. The pilot shop I use at 2W2 (admittedly short with <1600’ available) has had two in the last 15 years. 
 

A lot of Mooney RLOC don’t make it into the database. All of the stalls in the pattern do. 
 

Extra margin is good, but there’s a point of diminishing returns. I don’t need to calculate a Vref for every flight because I’ve done it enough times in the past to know about where I should be based on the load.  Calculating the numbers did help me get my head around where I should be when the plane is light (60Kts on short final is fine). That and an instructor that pulled the yoke aft after I touched down to show me how much energy remained after I had “landed”… he was able to lift off, flare and smoothly land without touching the throttle.

[DCarlton]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I searched the the database many years ago and found that far more Mooneys end up with porpoise prop strikes or leave the departure end of the runway in a cloud of tire smoke, or stall/spin after a botched go around than come up short on final. My airport has had three Mooney RLOC incidents due to lack of speed control in my lifetime. Actually 4 but one was the same guy doing it twice. The pilot shop I use at 2W2 (admittedly short with <1600’ available) has had two in the last 15 years. 
 

A lot of Mooney RLOC don’t make it into the database. All of the stalls in the pattern do. 
 

Extra margin is good, but there’s a point of diminishing returns. I don’t need to calculate a Vref for every flight because I’ve done it enough times in the past to know about where I should be based on the load.  Calculating the numbers did help me get my head around where I should be when the plane is light (60Kts on short final is fine). That an instructor that pulled the yoke aft after I touched down to show me how much energy remained after I had “landed”… he was able to lift off, flare and smoothly land without touching the throttle.

I flew yesterday with the speeds we’ve discussed recently.  I still couldn’t convince myself to get below 85 mph until I was over the fence….   Gonna work on holding it off longer in the flare and see how that works out before I slow up any more.  Got plenty of runway.  

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I flew yesterday with the speeds we’ve discussed recently.  I still couldn’t convince myself to get below 85 mph until I was over the fence….   Gonna work on holding it off longer in the flare and see how that works out before I slow up any more.  Got plenty of runway.  

Spend some quality time at altitude in slow flight. No, not the kind where you learn to ignore stall warnings. The kind where you practice the speeds you use from final all the way down to the stall at touchdown and learn just how far 1.3 Vso is from danger.

Nervous about doing that? Time to grab an instructor. They're not just to meet insurance requirements, you know. 

[kortopates]

3 hours ago, hubcap said:

I never go below VREF in the pattern until the runway is assured. I had this drilled into my head by the best pilot I know.

Really don't understand your comment but you may mean something different from my interpretation. But Vref, final approach speed, is too slow of speed to use on downwind and base; just on short final. So even with the runway assured on base, I wouldn't want to be at Vref on the base turn.

[A64Pilot]

At 1.3 times stall speed unless I’m mucking up the math again, you WILL stall in a 60 degree angle of bank, not can, but WILL. 60 degree angle of bank increases stall speed by 40%

If you want to get slow on short final, I do. One way is to have a longer final. I’m not talking a bomber pattern, but not a C-152 pattern either. Dump that I have to stay tight so I can make the runway if the engine quits mentality. Get slow after the last turn to final. You can’t slow down much in a Mooney and come down much with a tight pattern.

 

[aviatoreb]

Some one should say in this thread - AOA.

Angle of Attack indicators are very useful, and especially ones that have aural warnings, and especially ones where that aural warning is in English instead of a tone or beep.

[DCarlton]

7 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Spend some quality time at altitude in slow flight. No, not the kind where you learn to ignore stall warnings. The kind where you practice the speeds you use from final all the way down to the stall at touchdown and learn just how far 1.3 Vso is from danger.

Nervous about doing that? Time to grab an instructor. They're not just to meet insurance requirements, you know. 

Thinking the same thing.  Did that a couple of years ago and really explored and documented onset of the stall warning horn and then the buffet.  20 mph bleeds off pretty fast in my airplane though (at least until ground effect); wondering if the three blade prop makes a difference and "helps" in my case.  

[Hank]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Thinking the same thing.  Did that a couple of years ago and really explored and documented onset of the stall warning horn and then the buffet.  20 mph bleeds off pretty fast in my airplane though (at least until ground effect); wondering if the three blade prop makes a difference and "helps" in my case.  

I call it "deploying the speed brake"!

[Ragsf15e]

Just remember all this talk of stall speed at 60 degrees of bank assumes level, unaccelerated flight.  To feel this, go up and do steep turns.  No wait, PPL steep turns are only 45 degrees.  Do 60 degree steep turns at say Va.  It will require a lot of power addition and a firm pull to maintain level flight. You will definitely feel the 2 Gs.  Yes, in that condition, stall speed is ~40% higher.  At less than 2 Gs, the stall speed is much less.  As @aviatoreb said, it’s AOA that matters.  Doing steep turns and slow flight and stalls and turning stalls are all very good for us.  
 

Remember, I can easily fly 90 degrees of bank and 50mph and not be stalled.  I will be at less than 1 G and nose will be falling.  I can do 60 degrees bank at 75 and not stall.  Really easy to prove to yourself at altitude.  
 

Before I get flamed for suggesting 90 degrees bank and 50mph in the pattern, I’m not suggesting that.  We just need to remember these relationships (academically), practice them at altitude (skill), and apply them in our flying (combination + experience).  A good instructor can help.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I flew yesterday with the speeds we’ve discussed recently.  I still couldn’t convince myself to get below 85 mph until I was over the fence….   Gonna work on holding it off longer in the flare and see how that works out before I slow up any more.  Got plenty of runway.  

At 85 over the fence in an M20F, you’ll be holding a long time…that’s 23mph above or nearly 1.4 x MGW Vso.