Need Some Education - 1974 M20E Mod Squad

[Duffman]

I fly for a living and come form a GA background but I know next to nothing about Mooney's.  A friend is telling me that he knows of 1974 M20E "with all the speed mods" from Mod Squad and he's raving about the plane.  I'd never heard of Mod Squad until today but again, I'm not knowledgeable about Mooney's.  My friend contends this plane is "basically a J model" after all of the mods.

I'm trying to get more information from him but he swears up and down that this is a desirable plane and I'd be lucky to get it before it hits the market. 

What I (think I) know is that it's a 1974 Mooney M20E that has spent most of its life hangared.  Supposedly, it has speed modifications and sound proofing by Mod Squad, 1/4 windshield and side glass, custom tinted, lighted wing tips, 201 cowling conversion, 201 speed and efficiency fairings and gap seals, 201 inner gear door and electric actuator mod.

I'm told it had a Blue Max overhaul (whom I'm also not familiar with) that supposedly included porting, polishing and flow balancing. I have no idea yet how long ago it was overhauled.  It has some kind of dorsal fin mod with an internal ELT antenna.  The panel has a Garmin 430W and a 340 audio panel and some kind of ADS-B solution.  I think it has an autopilot but the rest of the panel is still basic six pack.

I don't yet know the times and he said it has an old documented DH that was properly addressed many years ago.  I'm still trying to get more info about the DH.  It's possible it was a nose gear collapse around 30 years ago.

I know there's a lot of holes to fill-in but he's saying the Mod Squad mods alone were nearly $100K.

From what I've written, is there anything that sets this plane apart from most other M20E's of a similar vintage?  He's implying I could likely get it for $110K.  Obviously, the TT & SMOH will affect the value.

Sorry for such vague questions but I appreciate any info you guys could offer. 

Thanks!

Edited June 5, 2022 by Duffman
spelling

[201Mooniac]

If I recall correctly, Mod Squad was the Coy Jacobs shop in Venice FL.  He had many speed mods but I can't speak to which ones were really worthwhile.  I find it hard to believe the mods alone were $100K but maybe part of a $100K refurb project?  I know prices are crazy now but $110K for an M20E with DH seems steep but I really have no idea what the current market is.

[EricJ]

Many E models have been modified over the years with speed mods, etc., and as a result this one doesn't really sound that special.   It does, however, sound like it has an old panel and old avionics, which is not a plus these days.    Just from your description it sounds like maybe somebody is trying to inflate the value beyond what it should be.   Might be a nice airplane, might have some nice stuff, but there are certainly others out there that will be comparable.

 

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, Duffman said:

My friend contends this plane is "basically a J model" after all of the mods.

It might be a very nice E but with the mods it's definitely not a J model. The E is a short body and the J is a mid body. Not that it really means anything, but even with all of those mods, two to three years ago this was probably a $60,000 - $70,000 airplane. Airplanes which have sat in hangars for years are suddenly coming on to the market and selling. If you get serious, just make sure you get a mechanic who really knows Mooneys to give you a good pre-buy evaluation, looking especially for corrosion.

[KSMooniac]

I agree with Lance. It might be a really nice plane, but warrants a deep dive. I wouldn't care much about a gear -up/collapse from 30 years ago... I'd care more about usage and maintenance over the last few years. The mods are great, but don't raise hull value dollar-for-dollar.

If it isn't corroded, it could be a great plane to get and upgrade if needed.

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[Duffman]

Thanks for the feedback, gents.  There's only 53 search results for "Mod Squad" on this entire forum.

Here's a picture of the panel.   It's certainly functional but hardly anything to drool over. 

 

And an exterior shot:

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Duffman

[EricJ]

That's a nice-looking airplane.   It has a 201 cowl, which is a very good mod, 201 windscreen, and a lot of 201 pieces in the panel.   That hints that it was a nicely-modded E, so def something to be interested in if you're looking that way.    The panel is still old, and it'll still need a lot of inspection (as mentioned previously) for corrosion in the airframe and engine and general condition of everything.   Not a bad start, though.   Personally I like that it has electric gear, but others prefer the manual J-bar.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Duffman said:

Thanks for the feedback, gents.  There's only 53 search results for "Mod Squad" on this entire forum, so I guess they're not as prolific in the Mooney universe as my friend is implying.

Here's a picture of the panel.   It's certainly functional but hardly anything to drool over. 

 

 

And an exterior shot:

 

 

 

Looks nice. The speed mods are desirable (cowling and windshield for sure) but they don’t significantly inflate the price.  Lack of corrosion, good engine with recent use and low-ish hours smoh are all more important.  
 

The panel is fine for the short term, but you’re talking $25k-?? To add in a minimum electronic adi and hsi and a reasonable autopilot (gi-275s or g5s and gfc500).  You could easily spend $75k on the panel to get a new panel, g3x, gfc500, eis, gtn, etc if you want fully modern.

Looks like a good airplane, but it’s not at the top of all the older Mooneys.

[Duffman]

3 minutes ago, EricJ said:

That's a nice-looking airplane.   It has a 201 cowl, which is a very good mod, 201 windscreen, and a lot of 201 pieces in the panel.   That hints that it was a nicely-modded E, so def something to be interested in if you're looking that way.    The panel is still old, and it'll still need a lot of inspection (as mentioned previously) for corrosion in the airframe and engine and general condition of everything.   Not a bad start, though.   Personally I like that it has electric gear, but others prefer the manual J-bar.

 

This is the only other decent pic I have thus far.  I'm not sure if it shows much more than the other.  I'm trying to get more info.

 

[Ragsf15e]

Just now, Duffman said:

 

This is the only other decent pic I have thus far.  I'm not sure if it shows much more than the other.  I'm trying to get more info.

 

Look carefully for blue stains in the cockpit along the lower sidewalls and under the wings.  Not a showstopper, but fuel tank leaks are relatively common and can be expensive.

[LANCECASPER]

FYI When the Mod Squad would do an extensive job on a C, E or F they would re-name the model a Trophy 211, hence the reason for the revised N-Number on this one. (If you need more pictures of it, private message me and I'll send you a link to what I found)

The paint was done in 1998 and the panel was probably re-done in the late 90's/early 2000's. The interior looks like it was done in the last few years based on a google search. It looks well cared for cosmetically, but pulling inspection panels and the interior will help to tell the corrosion or lack there-of story. 

It has a 201 cowling, the 211 had soundproofing insulation upgrades, rounded window trim to give it a more modern appearance, better gear doors, the rear dorsal fin upgrade to make it look like a 201, added wing tips with lights. This one has the long range Monroy tanks which is highly desirable. It's a late E model (1974, they stopped making E's in 1975) so it has electric gear and flaps.

They spent a lot of money on a blueprinted engine overhaul but then didn't put in an engine monitor, which would be one of the first things to do if you buy it.

The last time it flew on FlightAware was November 2021 and it showed ADS-B out. With today's prices if it hits Controller at the $110K price it will sell. It was listed on Controller back in 2011-12 for $85,000.

[Duffman]

2 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Look carefully for blue stains in the cockpit along the lower sidewalls and under the wings.  Not a showstopper, but fuel tank leaks are relatively common and can be expensive.

Thanks.  The tanks were supposedly resealed at some point at a shop at KFXE, but I'm not sure how long ago.   Trying to get more info.

[Duffman]

1 minute ago, LANCECASPER said:

FYI When the Mod Squad would do an extensive job they would re-name the model a 211, hence the reason for the revised N-Number on this one.

Judging by the paint scheme it was probably re-done in the early 90's and the panel was probably re-done in the late 90's/early 2000's. The interior looks like it was done in the last few years based on a google search. It looks well cared for cosmetically, but pull inspection panels and the interior will help to tell the corrosion or lack there-of story. 

It has a 201 cowling, the 211 had soundproofing insulation upgrades, better gear doors, the rear dorsal fin upgrade to make it look like a 201, added wing tips with lights. This one has the long range Monroy tanks which is highly desirable. It's a late E model (1974) so it has electric gear and flaps.

Excellent info.  Thank you!

[Mooney Dog]

I would offer him 90 and be done with it. 

 

Its a nice airplane but that panel could use a bit of updating if you wanted to go more modern. Other than that it looks like its a 201 converted E. Would be a great XC machine for something around 10gph on the high side. 

[Ragsf15e]

What’s the UL?  How many people are you planning for your “mission”?  That’s a really nice E for 1 or 2 people.  

[Duffman]

6 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

What’s the UL?  How many people are you planning for your “mission”?  That’s a really nice E for 1 or 2 people.  

I don't know the UL but my mission is 1 or 2 people, tops.  I need to travel from central FL to the Atlanta area from time to time.  I'd likely only keep it for a couple of years.  I have something else in the works. 

But the drive is seven hours each way and this would be a lot quicker and a lot more fun.  I've been out of GA for over 20 years and I'm motivated to get active (I fly for a living).

Edited May 20, 2022 by Duffman

[Ragsf15e]

6 minutes ago, Duffman said:

I don't know the UL but my mission is 1 or 2 people, tops.  I need to travel from central FL to the Atlanta area from time to time.  I'd likely only keep it for a couple of years.  I have something else in the works. 

But the drive is seven hours each way and this would be a lot quicker and a lot more fun.  I've been out of GA for over 20 years and I'm motivated to get active (I fly for a living).

Solid airplane for that mission.

[mike_elliott]

Would this be the E in PA that Mark Green was telling me about he was selling for a friend by chance?

[Duffman]

4 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Would this be the E in PA that Mark Green was telling me about he was selling for a friend by chance?

Not Mark Green but could be the same plane.

[chriscalandro]

Today I saw someone listed 50%of a C for 60k. This is almost as insane. 
 

there isn’t anything special in that panel, and there isn’t anything remarkable about the mods. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

there isn’t anything special in that panel, and there isn’t anything remarkable about the mods. 

If you took all of the E models flying, although this panel is 20 years old, it is definitely above average compared to other 48 year old Mooneys for sale. It has a WAAS Garmin 430 and a modern stereo audio panel. It at least gives you a place to start from. With an engine monitor it could easily be flown for a few years and see what the next latest and greatest proves to be.

Regarding mods, this has virtually every airframe mod available for an E model plus long range tanks. The  Mod Squad Trophy 211 conversion included sound proofing , 1/4" windshield and side glass custom tinted, lighted wing tips, 201 cowling conversion, 201 speed and efficiency fairings and gap seals, 201 inner gear door and electric actuator mod. Dorsal fin mod with internal ELT Antenna, rounded window trim, et, etc, etc.

The 211 mods over 25 years ago were big money. You couldn't possibly duplicate all of these mods today since there is no availability of some of these parts. (https://books.google.com/books?id=eK-0kCuwKz8C&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=mooney+211&source=bl&ots=lgCazMFXjv&sig=YeK8FHIYUFDoZGtGwrzzaSRL_XU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis0-XU8eLZAhVs8IMKHWQMCBc4ChDoATAGegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=mooney 211&f=false)

Long Range Tanks if you could get them today would be roughly $10,000.

When I am buying a Mooney I look for 5 things: Powerplant (Engine/Prop), Panel, Tanks, Airframe (including Paint) and Interior. This looks like a lot of the boxes are checked compared to similar age airplanes. It also shows pride of ownership which likely says a lot about the way it was flown and maintained.

[McMooney]

looks to be a pretty nice plane.  while yes, you could put boatloads of cash into the panel, that one is perfectly serviceable.

If you're lucky, the brittain works or can be fixed, it'll follow the pink line like it's on rails.

Honestly, if you bought an E today and tried to mod it to an equiv level, it would be WAY more expensive than what's being asked.

tanks alone are almost unobtainable.  oh yeah, it's prob faster then a M20J.  

get it annualed, if it passes write a check, have fun.  

[KSMooniac]

I'd be very seriously checking this one out for your mission. That panel is perfectly functional, assuming the Brittain still works, and I'd bet a dollar it does based on the obvious price of ownership. I'm not a fan of the interior, but that is subjective and it is likely nice and comfy. If you only plan to fly it a couple years, it should do great. I would put an engine monitor in immediately, and fly the heck out of it.

I bet it is fast, and the long range tanks and modern reseal are huge advantages compared to many other vintage Mooneys. Those 201 mods are really nice, and I suspect it will outrun most J's.

Good luck

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[LANCECASPER]

On 5/20/2022 at 6:46 PM, Duffman said:

I don't know the UL but my mission is 1 or 2 people, tops.  I need to travel from central FL to the Atlanta area from time to time.  I'd likely only keep it for a couple of years.  I have something else in the works. 

But the drive is seven hours each way and this would be a lot quicker and a lot more fun.  I've been out of GA for over 20 years and I'm motivated to get active (I fly for a living).

Any updates in your pursuit of this airplane?

[Duffman]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Any updates in your pursuit of this airplane?

For the time being, I've decided to pass.  The plane is likely a good foundation for someone but there are too many logistical issues (lack of hangar availability near my home, for one) that have led me to put the brakes on for now.

I did learn that the cam was replaced in mid 2015 at just under 1100 tach hours and I'm told the tach now reads 1200.  So it's flown about 110 hours in the past 7 years, or 15 hours/year.  I guess that's somewhat average for a lot of GA planes but it's less than I'd hoped to see.

The major was likely done 20-25 years ago.  I still haven't gotten a definitive answer on that but I also told my friend I'm likely not a serious buyer at this point.  

Edited June 4, 2022 by Duffman