Messing Around

[Immelman]

In the Mooney? None, at least in my mind. I took a friend on a trip once and we had to divert on the way home due to weather. Fog came in early and was below minimums for our best approach. So we diverted to a nearby field with an ILS to minimums as it was getting dark. That apparently messed with him/blew his mind. He kept telling me how amazed he was at the whole thing. Pretty death defying eh?

If you guys want to risk flying low somewhere my suggestion is to go find some desolate/unpopulated hills that overlook some agricultural land. Then you can go tooling around running down the ridge line without busting any minmum safe altitude rules and still glide down to a field if you need to. Not that I'm condoning it; there is risk in that kind of behavior for sure, its just an approach that complies with the rules and gives an out. Just don't screw up.

[xftrplt]

What kinda stuff can/have you done in a Mooney for messing with passengers (especially the kind that think they're not scared of anything)?

The above Cease and Desist advise is spot on. 

Particularly troubling is your apparent motive, i.e., to scare passengers.  

They may not know enough to be scared, thereby tempting you to try harder.

Apart from the foolishness (nicest word I could come up with) and immorality of risking innocent lives, it's a recipe for disaster.

(A Mooney can, no doubt, perform extraordinary unapproved maneuvers--in the hands of an expert...think of Bob Hoover, or Jim Peitz in his Bonanza--but, if you have to ask, you're no Hoover or Peitz.)

PS:  Re Becca's "non-judgmental" judgments:  The OP isn't about improving skills or training.  It's about scaring passengers. 

[sleepingsquirrel]

A kite can do amazing things in the hands of the gifted, so can a Mooney.

Do you feel gifted? Was that spin five turns or six? Well?  You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Do I feel lucky?” Well do ya, punk?

Loosely and shamelessly lifted from Dirty Harry.

I was lucky , 70 feet short of the threshold is just under one second in time at 65 MPH, if I had not been aligned with the centerline it could have been ugly! Less than one second miscalculation, otherwise it was a good landing!

Do be careful! Stick with the Gatoraid pee bottle guzzle trick or the old , I'm having chest pain , you're going to have to land it!

 

[Shadrach]

squirrel, what were you trying to do that brought you up short? Were you practicing shot feild technique? spot landing? What happened and how???

[scottfromiowa]

Mike:

Were you being serious with your initial question, or just joking around?  Seriously, I take a LOT of pride in giving all passengers a good positive experience when they fly in my plane.  IF you are serious that you think it is cute or fun to "mess with passengers" to evoke fear and unease you need to look at your behavior and say "why"?  This kind of behavior can and DOES result in unplanned events that cost lives and damage property.  For what?  To show somebody he/she isn't as tough as they think they are?  Your mindset here strikes me as immature.  I enjoy "kidding around", but NOT in an airplane...unless it is designed for these maneuvers...and then it's to build experience as well as having FUN, not scaring somebody.  Mooney's are NOT to be spinned and steep turns shouldn't be scary, but when done well show you are a competent pilot.  Power on and off stalls are also a way to demonstrate airmanship/competence to passengers.  Isn't this what you want to do?  Instill confidence in you from your passengers based on your sound decision making and overall competence in your plane?  How does scaring somebody do this?

[jetdriven]

Squirrel may be the only pilot wqho ever landed short of the field in a Mooney.  The other 946 went off the other end, like this guy!

[sleepingsquirrel]

Quote: Shadrach

squirrel, what were you trying to do that brought you up short? Were you practicing shot feild technique? spot landing? What happened and how???

[jetdriven]

I hav noticed these laminar flow wings on these Mooneys start sinking like a rock below 70 MPH or so on final, the slower you go, the faster it sinks.

[gregwatts]

I am with the "Don't do it!" group. You can't possibly have all the "what ifs" covered.

I also believe that a self examination is in order for anybody that would even contemplate using an aircraft to "mess" with somebody! Decision making plays a huge roll in flying.......hopefully you make the right decision and mess with your friends on the ground.

[Becca]

I'd like to rephrase this question to remove all the judgment that is going on here:

What manuevers may be done, legally and within the certification envelop, of a Mooney aircraft, which might be entertaining/educational/fun for a passenger that is not nervous about GA and would enjoy seeing something more than straight and level flight at cruise altitude?

Now, with the question worded this way, do you think any response someone might give you would be 'foolhardy'?  I personally don't think this subject is absurd in any way shape or form.  And I consider myself a fairly conservative pilot (certainly more so than my husband).  In fact the other air racers have been teasing me because I've been crossing the finish lines at 100-200' while most of the other pilots have been mowing the grass.

I am confused a little about the low pass thing, jasonwojo, I'd really like to hear more about the scenario you found yourself in with the FAA.  Assuming you were at a non-city airport and there wasn't an airshow going on (e.g. " open air assembly of persons"), you'd be under this section 91.119:

© Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

I would presume a runway counts as a "sparsley populated area" (hell, air traffic control in FLL told us to fly over the water below 500 feet as part of our clearance), which would allow you to be as low as you wanted, as long as you maintain a 500' separation with people/structures/etc., which in my experience with airports, their buildings are usually more than 500' away.

Another option, I guess, where you don't take this risk, is to perform a short field take off, which allows you to fly in ground effect the length of the runway (and is good practice).  Also, my more "thrill seeking" passengers have always liked steep turns and flights down the beach.  As I've mentioned, many aerospace engineers are interested in seeing a plane stall, and I am happy to demonstrate this maneuver for them as well.

[jelswick]

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[sleepingsquirrel]

Quote: jetdriven

I hav noticed these laminar flow wings on these Mooneys start sinking like a rock below 70 MPH or so on final, the slower you go, the faster it sinks.

[jasonwojo]

Becca...I like the phrase "mowing the grass" you used.  The airport I did a flyby was a privately owned, public use, uncontrolled airport (Class G airspace) with a 4,600 ft paved runway and a shorter parallel grass strip.  There are hangers the entire length of the runway and a restaurant on the very North end (opposite side of the grass strip).  All of these structures are well inside 500 feet from center line.  I flew South to North, downwind, at 220 knots "mowing the grass" (pavement) the entire length of the runway.  I was last of a group of other planes who were doing the same.  We were all communicating our intentions via unicom.  This is a very active airport due to the popular restaurant and the fact it is a progressive, fast growing airpark.  It, and a couple of other aiports in the area, had gotten the local FSDOs attention for doing flybys.  The FSDO Manager was on location for this reason and wrote down my tail number.  This same manager had recently been involved, personally, with the airport but asked to leave for having a negative attitude towards aviation.  I fought the issue using an aviation attorney, but the FSDO Manager used many FAA resources (multiple FAA attorneys) to prosecute.  I spent a large amount of money (attorney was $300/hr) and the situation was getting out of control with the FAA processes.  I eventually agreed to one of the charges (FAR 91.119) for a reduced suspension.  My attorney believed I would have won the case in court, but at what expense?  In consideration of costs, I gave in.  What I was doing was wrong, and, like I said before, I paid the price.  I am not proud to have lost my license, but I am not here to hide the truth, either.  For those reading this, use this information for your own consideration.  Yes, staying in ground effect for takeoff is legal.  Please be safe guys, and gals!

[jetdriven]

Jason, you needed a better lawyer. I think I know who you used in Miami.  My friend had a similar issue,fired that bozo, hired my lawyer, changed the FSDO of jurisdiction, and beat the FAA.  Sorry it didn't work out.  That's administrative law.  

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: jasonwojo

Becca...I like the phrase "mowing the grass" you used.  The airport I did a flyby was a privately owned, public use, uncontrolled airport (Class G airspace) with a 4,600 ft paved runway and a shorter parallel grass strip.  There are hangers the entire length of the runway and a restaurant on the very North end (opposite side of the grass strip).  All of these structures are well inside 500 feet from center line.  I flew South to North, downwind, at 220 knots "mowing the grass" (pavement) the entire length of the runway.  I was last of a group of other planes who were doing the same.  We were all communicating our intentions via unicom.  This is a very active airport due to the popular restaurant and the fact it is a progressive, fast growing airpark.  It, and a couple of other aiports in the area, had gotten the local FSDOs attention for doing flybys.  The FSDO Manager was on location for this reason and wrote down my tail number.  This same manager had recently been involved, personally, with the airport but asked to leave for having a negative attitude towards aviation.  I fought the issue using an aviation attorney, but the FSDO Manager used many FAA resources (multiple FAA attorneys) to prosecute.  I spent a large amount of money (attorney was $300/hr) and the situation was getting out of control with the FAA processes.  I eventually agreed to one of the charges (FAR 91.119) for a reduced suspension.  My attorney believed I would have won the case in court, but at what expense?  In consideration of costs, I gave in.  What I was doing was wrong, and, like I said before, I paid the price.  I am not proud to have lost my license, but I am not here to hide the truth, either.  For those reading this, use this information for your own consideration.  Yes, staying in ground effect for takeoff is legal.  Please be safe guys, and gals!

[jetdriven]

Deleted

[201er]

Quote: Becca

I'd like to rephrase this question to remove all the judgment that is going on here:

What manuevers may be done, legally and within the certification envelop, of a Mooney aircraft, which might be entertaining/educational/fun for a passenger that is not nervous about GA and would enjoy seeing something more than straight and level flight at cruise altitude?

[jetdriven]

Mike, a low approach is illegal if witnessed by a "green weenie new hire"or an "Eastern scab and upset with the world" FSDO inspector with a chip on his shoulder.  I suppose every ILS must terminate with either a landing or a crash to be legal.    No provision for missed approach.  I don't know how they classify the "Texas dirt run" perfomed by a FAA flight check king air -200 doing 160 knot full length ground effect runs after flight checking an ILS.  Gear up the whole time also.  Then a 29 degree pullup.

You can inspect the field for obstacles before landing' thats mandatory with me before landing on grass in a Mooney.  Bottom line, don't get into a discussion with anyone on the ground about this. If confronted, give them a certain Lawyer's address in Colleyville, TX and forget about it.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

This is my favorite zero-G video. I'm sure many of you have seen it:

[DaV8or]

I have witnessed FAA tower controlers approve high speed low passes within FAA controled airspace at FAA controled airports. I thought it was legal.

[Cris]

What may be done in our Mooney's is covered in the Normal category in which the Mooney is certificated. For all  paractical purposes any aerobatics or intentional spins are prohibited as per the POH & FAR Sec. 23.3 — Airplane categories.

(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less, and intended for nonacrobatic operation. Nonacrobatic operation includes:

(1) Any maneuver incident to normal flying;

(2) Stalls (except whip stalls); and

(3) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60 degrees.

[Cris]

FWITW I take the exact opposite view with passengers in that I work over time to insure the most pleasant flight posssible as I believe we have an obligation to encourage as many folks as possible to share our passion. Often I will refuse to take someone up if the winds are strong or there is turbalence. Typically I look for only the best conditions in which to fly especially with those that have limited experience with general aviation and have heard how all these little planes are unsafe & crash etc etc. Just my thoughts .

[Jimhamilton]

Quote: 201er

What kinda stuff can/have you done in a Mooney for messing with passengers (especially the kind that think they're not scared of anything)?

In gliders I've done wing overs, dives, stalls, spins, over the top 0 gs, loops, and inverted flight. Haven't messed about in the Mooney cause I don't know how much it can safely take and I don't know how to deal with the prop in these conditions. I'm worried about something like a wing over or dive that it may overspeed the prop at some point. So I'm not sure if the prop should be full forward to slow the dive or reduced back to windmill, etc.

Gimme some ideas besides really steep turns of stuff I can do?

[flyboy0681]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Poor girl...Really poor job by pilot of knowing what was happening in the plane.  We just pulled up in cruise and when close to stall pused full rudder, dove, recovered airspeed pulled up to level flight...and repeat.  Gyro definitely tumbled.  Man, I would NOT want to destroy my soon to be new header with puke...Good Grief...

[Becca]

Quote: Cris

FWITW I take the exact opposite view with passengers in that I work over time to insure the most pleasant flight posssible as I believe we have an obligation to encourage as many folks as possible to share our passion. Often I will refuse to take someone up if the winds are strong or there is turbalence. Typically I look for only the best conditions in which to fly especially with those that have limited experience with general aviation and have heard how all these little planes are unsafe & crash etc etc. Just my thoughts .