Mooney accident Central Jersey, April 4, 2022…

[jetdriven]

8 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

On my J (and I assume most J and later Mooney's) the landing gear handle is up high on the panel, the throttle quadrant in the center and flaps down low far below the throttle quadrant.  They are not remotely close and each has a different handle - Gear is shaped like a tire, throttle quadrant are push/pull/twist (except 77-78 J) and flaps are a flipper lever. You have to be really not thinking to "grab the wrong lever"

Yet there are several stories right here where that has happened to Mooney pilots.  

[larrynimmo]

Twice I decided not to go around when carrying too much energy into my landings…both times I stopped at the end of the runway…barely

both incidents involved wind analysis…Awos reported 10K direct headwind. But in the air I had a 20 k tailwind, and by the time I touched the pavement there was no headwind.  My sight picture of the approach was skewed by the tailwind and I failed to do a forward slip to get me down where I needed to be.

I pushed both landings too far, and should have gone around, as both times I was half way down the runway before touchdown.

honestly I used to never go around…now I set hard boundaries, and keep in mind, you want to go around when you still have the energy to take back off again

[Pinecone]

On 6/20/2022 at 11:07 AM, cliffy said:

T&Gs unsafe?   I used to do them in 727s, 737s not in the sim.   Never had a problem. Its all in cockpit dicipline.

Did a LOT of them in the T-37 and T-38.  Through USAF UPT, when I went through, the only ride with more than one full stop is your initial solo in the T-37.  You do 3 or more patterns, then full stop to let your instructor out, then at least 3 patterns solo.

 

Personally, if I touched the brakes, I would consider myself committed to land.  Better to go off the end of the runway at a very slow speed, then to go off the end just below flying speed.

[steingar]

14 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’d just be careful, as an outside observer to this discussion, it appears that you’ve already made up your mind not to go around after touching down or maybe flaring is the cutoff? Or maybe round out?  Or short final?

I guess my point is, don’t let yourself think that you’re infallible to the point of locking out a good option of going around after touchdown.

I have a good amount of time, lots of instructor time, fly professionally, etc, and I had to go around after touchdown with my whole family on board.  I firmly believe it was safer than staying on the ground.  Runway was ~3,500’, so not short, airspeeds were reasonable, maybe not perfect, weather was blustery but not overly.  Somehow I flared and bounced.  Up until that point, I had nothing telling me this landing would be any different than the last 600 Mooney landings.  Did I catch a gust? Micronap?  Too steep?  Too fast?  I don’t know, but I am sure the next bounce would have been much harder.  T&G practice made the GA execution second nature, even with (or especially with) the full flaps I had.

Oh absolutely, if things aren't looking right on the runway I'll bail hard and fast, I've done it before and will do it again.  I was really addressing the comments about vehicles and beasties.  You should be able to see any vehicles impacting the runway far in advance and get a decent idea of what they're going to do or will do.  

A lot of bikers site the dangers of left-turning cars.  The idea is the car can turn in front of them leading to a collision.  My take is simple, if I see a car that appears to be turning left I assume it's going to do so and act accordingly.  If I see a vehicle pointed at a runway I assume it's going to pull onto the runway unless I have reason to believe it won't (like a radio call).  In 20 years I've yet to have to go around because of a vehicle pulling out on a runway.  Never seen any beasties either, but I don't tend to fly in the sticks.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, steingar said:

Oh absolutely, if things aren't looking right on the runway I'll bail hard and fast, I've done it before and will do it again.  I was really addressing the comments about vehicles and beasties.  You should be able to see any vehicles impacting the runway far in advance and get a decent idea of what they're going to do or will do.  

A lot of bikers site the dangers of left-turning cars.  The idea is the car can turn in front of them leading to a collision.  My take is simple, if I see a car that appears to be turning left I assume it's going to do so and act accordingly.  If I see a vehicle pointed at a runway I assume it's going to pull onto the runway unless I have reason to believe it won't (like a radio call).  In 20 years I've yet to have to go around because of a vehicle pulling out on a runway.  Never seen any beasties either, but I don't tend to fly in the sticks.

You apparently not read the plethora of articles after a high wing plane hit a car on short final. The car was on the road, which went virtually across at the end of the runway. Seems there were nearby trees keeping the pilot from seeing it, and he wanted to land on the numbers. Stupid minivan / SUV roof got in the way of a wheel, somewhere in Texas if memory is correct. Stuff happens . . . .

[Shadrach]

On 6/20/2022 at 1:02 PM, Hank said:

I can raise the flaps while holding throttle to idle, by moving one finger. To get to the gear, I have to let go and raise my hand. I generally raise my flaps before braking, too--it saves brakes and prevents flat-spotting the tires by reducing lift.

It is true that it would be hard to do but the human brain does weird things under stress. 

I experienced this firsthand during my PPL check ride. We had to stop mid ride to add fuel to the C150 (full figured DPE meant minimal fuel).  The ride was going fine, but I was nervous. It was August in Indiana and I'm pretty sure we were well over gross for all of the ride.  I had never flown the plane that heavy.  And my 20 something brain was convinced that he was testing me to see if I would question the legality/safety of the flight. We taxied up to the pump and I reached up and turned the mags off without touching the mixture.  I knew I was screwing the pooch as I did it. I looked at the DPE and said "I can't believe I just did that...I have never shut an airplane down like that" and I hadn't before nor have I since. He grumbled something about proper procedure and left it at that.

It's a weird disconnect where the brain gets rote behavior out of sequence. The hands go on auto pilot before the thinking part of the brain can intervene. 

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, Pinecone said:

 

Personally, if I touched the brakes, I would consider myself committed to land.  Better to go off the end of the runway at a very slow speed, then to go off the end just below flying speed.

NJ has lost a couple of Mooneys…

Where the T/O after touchdown was delayed too long…

But the commitment to fly was taken…

A rental M20J had a fatal accident…

This M20M is in the lucky category more or less…

 

Better to run long…

-a-

[steingar]

19 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Do you mean this accident at Roanoke, TX?   It was a student pilot with 45 hours on x-country solo.  There are no trees blocking anything.  That is only some pitiful mesquite scrub.  The student was so low that he nearly took out the fence. 

The airport is private and does not meet FAA standards,  The threshold, which had been previously 400 ft from the end of runway, had been moved up to only 140 ft. displaced.  The road edge was 25 ft from the end of runway (165 ft from TD zone)  Yes there should be a stop sign on the road warning drivers to look - they spray painted something instead.  But the "stupid" parties here were the student pilot and airport owner that moved and reduced the displaced threshold.  And yes "Stuff happens" when you are not properly trained and/or proficient.

The message again is stay proficient at landings in general including balked landings, Touch and Goes and Go-Arounds/Missed and this will not be you....

That crash falls squarely on the shoulders of the pilot.  He should have been able to see the blasted car as he turned final, in a proper airplane he'd have seen it on base.  Again, in the book of Steingar a car approaching the runway is assumed to be about to drive onto the runway until proven otherwise.  I'll keep flying until I see the situation resolve.

[LANCECASPER]

Had he not come in literally right over the fence and had he aimed past the numbers we wouldn't be talking about this. 

I have no idea what his training had been like, but instructors that insist on students landing on the numbers may have good intentions but I could see how that focus could certainly contribute to this type of accident. A good safe landing in the first few hundred feet works just fine.

[BobbyH]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

A good safe landing in the first few hundred feet works just fine.

Unless your instructor is teaching you to land like he learned on the carrier deck.