Advice on Buying a Vintage Mooney

[tim417]

So I'm noticing that with my budget of 60-90k for a vintage C or E model, there is always some kind of concern with the aircraft. Either the avionics are super old, no IFR capability, damage history, high airframe time (10k hours plus), or engine/prop time beyond manufacturer recommended tboh. Anyhoo, I am looking at a 1966 E model with a bottom overhaul 1750 hours ago and a top overhaul 1100 hours ago. At $60k asking price, even if I needed to overhaul the thing, it seems like it is in line with current market prices. but with current supply chain issues, I don't want to buy a plane that will just be down for 6 months.

[Rwsavory]

You can improve your odds by ascertaining that the airplane has been flying on a regular basis and having a mechanic you trust review the logbooks and do a good pre-buy.  These engines will go beyond TBO if well maintained and flown regularly. 

[tim417]

Thank you! That is the plan. I will have to rely on the contracted prebuy mechanic from Savvy Prebuy as the plane is located across the country. Waiting on logs to arrive. 

Apparently a previous potential buyer backed out as their bank did not like the engine being beyond overhaul time, but not sure how that part works.

 

Tim

[Mooneymite]

When buying a vintage Mooney, something to be cognizant of is the vast number of changes/differences between older C's/E's and newer ones.  For example older C's have manual gear, newer C's have electric gear.  The older models had the "shotgun panels", the newer models had the "sacred six" panel layouts.  The older C's are prone to aft spar cracking, the newer C's are not.  Older C's may have had early versions of the Brittain PC, or no PC at all.  Later C''s had different PC's.  Older C's had very low yellow speed arcs.  While the airframes are basically the same, the models are not the same in all aspects.  The manual gear and hydraulic flaps were well loved and have great reputations for reliability, it is note worthy that the latest and greatest Mooneys do not offer the manual gear/hydraulic flaps as an option.  The published performance data from the older Mooneys may have had more to do with sales than accuracy leading many to believe the older Mooneys were faster/better performing.

If you're buying a vintage C, or E it is wise to be aware of the many differences of the various years.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Mooneymite

[Bob E]

Assuming this is your first aircraft purchase: To buy an aircraft with an over-TBO engine is to buy an aircraft that will need a new engine or major overhaul soon. (Somewhat the same with a high-time prop and prop governor.) You simply can't assume otherwise, and no matter how good the pre-buy is (checking how many hours are on the mags or vaccuum pump), it can't uncover every potential failure. So either it will be a project plane - requiring lots of time and AMUs to upgrade the avionics, overhaul the engine, comply with ADs, renew the interior, etc., with correspondent downtime -- or it will be a plane that you purchase and plan to fly with minimal downtime. Most people who are buying their first aircraft prefer the latter, but if the aircraft is priced for the former, then plan accordingly.

If you're buying someone else's problems (aircraft wasn't tended to or flown much before the sale), it's probably better to upgrade to new radios, avionics, etc. as opposed to trying to fix the old stuff. Just my opinion.

BTW I wouldn't worry about old damage history such as a gear-up. If the aircraft has been flown for, say, a hundred hours or more after the damage was repaired, that shouldn't affect airworthiness or safety. But pay attention to whether the current engine was installed when then damage occurred.

[mike20papa]

4 hours ago, tim417 said:

So I'm noticing that with my budget of 60-90k for a vintage C or E model, there is always some kind of concern with the aircraft. Either the avionics are super old, no IFR capability, damage history, high airframe time (10k hours plus), or engine/prop time beyond manufacturer recommended tboh. Anyhoo, I am looking at a 1966 E model with a bottom overhaul 1750 hours ago and a top overhaul 1100 hours ago. At $60k asking price, even if I needed to overhaul the thing, it seems like it is in line with current market prices. but with current supply chain issues, I don't want to buy a plane that will just be down for 6 months.

Have you considered the radical idea of purchasing the last Mooney produced that Al Mooney actually designed and signed the type certificate?  We A model owners actually consider it the apex of Al Mooney's career & wouldn't consider anything else.  AL Mooney, one of the first degreed aeronautical engineers in the US, student of Giuseppe Bellanca, left Mooney after producing the last woodwing aircraft of his noted long career designing only wood wing AC.  Look into the E model .. in order to recover the performance lost when aluminizing the airframe - bolt on a 200 hp engine and build the wing spar out of 7075-T6 (now known for it's intergranular corrosion) to save weight.  No thanks -  make mine out of sitka spruce and mahogany ply wood or I'll go fly something else with a wood wing.  Look into the Hughes H1.  Howard could have built that wing out of a gold/titanium alloy if he thought it better than SPRUCE.  ALso look into the stiffness per pound given a fixed section modulus wood vs. aluminum.   Deflection, not ultimate strength is typically what drives design.  Back around 1990 I went to a talk given by the young Douglas Jr.  at Texas A&M.  He spoke of his time with pop and the early days and then went on to say that wood was the material of choice for limited production/high performance aircraft.  But when mass production became a paramount factor, aluminum was it.

Edited December 14, 2021 by mike20papa

[Utah20Gflyer]

There is a pretty big difference between an older Mooney that is selling for 60k vs 90k. You are going to have trouble getting what you want at the low end but an older Mooney in the 75k to 90k range should be a pretty good plane.  

My Mooney pretty much fits what you are looking for and is probably worth 75k now, low time engine and prop, WAAS GPS and a lot of other nice features.   Good planes are out there but there is also a lot of run out stuff that hasn't been upgraded in 30 years.  Don't buy one of those.  Just be patient, something good will come along eventually.   Good planes move fast so do your homework, look at a lot of planes, fly as many as you can and eventually you'll figure out what you want and you'll get a good feel for what is a good value.  

[MikeOH]

A bit over 4 years ago I did exactly what you are contemplating: bought a Mooney with a technically beyond TBO engine, but with a bottom end (new cam, lifters, bearings) done 600 hours prior; and all cylinders replaced at some point since then.  The previous owner had flown it 100 hours per year for the last 13 years, and it was hangared the whole time.  After having looked at many dogs over a longer period of time than I care to admit, and losing out on a couple that were not dogs because I was hesitant, I jumped on my plane.

Yes, you have to accept (and be able to afford) an overhaul at any moment but, frankly, that can happen to an engine with any amount of time.  Honestly, I felt more comfortable buying a plane that was continuously flown and well maintained than one with a 'fresh overhaul' put up for sale with no real use in the past few years.

Good luck!

P.S. I've now put 400 hours on the engine and it burns under 1 quart in 10 hours, compressions in the high 70s,... I'm in zero rush to OH; I have a Insight G3 and upload all my data to Savvy and will wait until I start to see indications of a problem.

P.P.S I've been extremely happy with the service and advice from Savvy.  I think using them to manage a pre-buy is an excellent idea.

[Z W]

If you're new to shopping airplanes, just know the market is crazy right now.  Anything with a low/mid time engine, nice paint, nice interior, WAAS GPS, and ADSB is selling immediately, often off-market, and never hitting Controller / Trade-a-Plane / Barnstormers.  The only planes that you see are ones with issues like an engine at TBO.  It's never been like this since I got into GA over 10 years ago.

I don't know what to tell first time plane owners in today's market.  In the past I would have said to avoid buying a project as your first plane, and anything with an engine at or over TBO should be considered a project.  Today, there may not be any other option.  But first, I would check the listings every day, have cash in hand, and call a few well-known Mooney dealers and let them know you're a buyer for the right plane as soon as it comes along.  Make sure they know they can make a quick sale.  Maybe also make a "Wanted" post here on Mooneyspace.  There could be somebody thinking about selling.

[Greg Ellis]

You could also send a note to Jimmy Garrison and Gmaxamericanaircraft.com and tell them what you are looking for.  They may be able to keep an eye out for what you are looking for.

[steingar]

The more money you spend the more boxes your check.  No way to guarantee you won't be down for months.  Now way at all.

[tim417]

Thank you all for your replies. I am taking all of them to heart and I am definitely keeping in mind any engine can go at any time. This plane has been flying for 120 hours in the last year and similar hours each year before that. Double checking logs to be sure but it definitely looks in line with market prices. 

[tim417]

And yes, I got the buyer’s guide and am on Jimmy Garrison’s list!

[Jcmtl]

as a reference, i bought a 68 C model this summer for $30,000.  engine time was 1900 hours and total time was 3,800.  Interior and exterior were 4/10 but the plane flies great and the engine compression is good.  I am now upgrading the interior and avionics for 25,000$ which is getting me a new airtex interior, garmin gps, aspen E5, new audio panel, some new engine monitoring gauges, and brand new custom made panel with a better layout and ipad mount, usb charger, etc...  

I figure that with 55k invested, and a potential engine OH of 25k, 80k will get me a plane with a new interior, good avionics, and a new engine.  (still have bad paint)  

So I'd say, either find a very cheap "project" plane in the 30-40k range, or spend 80k-90k for something nice with everything you want.  

[rurumonster]

+1 to Tim for starting this thread, much like him, I am also in the market for a vintage M20. Seems like great value for the cost, just need to find the right one and as previously stated, it's a horrible time to be a buyer. 

[tim417]

Thank you all for your sage advice on this thread as well as on the rest of the board. I am now the proud owner of a very nicely maintained 63 C model. Engine is a bit high time but the motor runs extremely smooth and the prebuy went great. Paint looks like it was done yesterday despite being 18 years old. Interior is in very good shape. Has a JPI 900 and GTN 625 with two KX155 Nav/Coms. Market is crazy right now so I am pretty happy with the purchase. Probably could have paid 40% less 3 years ago but that’s how it goes. 

Can’t wait to meet some of you guys at some future event. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by tim417
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[Prior owner]

Nice looking C model!

[pirate]

Congratulations! 

[BigTex]

I've not checked the market recently but my main advice is to find the most plane you can afford that's flown regularly that has the avionics you want.  Upgrading avionics can easily exceed what you paid for the plane and you'll never recoup your investment.  Better to have a prior owner take the hit than you.  C-Models are relatively simple planes.  Especially the earlier one's with manual gear and hydraulic flaps.  So outside of the engine and avionics, the cost of ownership and repair for the other items is not too bad.

[carusoam]

Yay Tim!

Congrats…

Fly early and often!

-a-

[tim417]

This forum has been and and continues to be such a great resource. I’ve put almost 10 hours on her in a week and look forward to getting to know everything inside and out. Already looking at panel upgrades. I suspect it will never end. 

 

Tim

[tim417]

16 hours ago, BigTex said:

I've not checked the market recently but my main advice is to find the most plane you can afford that's flown regularly that has the avionics you want.  Upgrading avionics can easily exceed what you paid for the plane and you'll never recoup your investment.  Better to have a prior owner take the hit than you.  C-Models are relatively simple planes.  Especially the earlier one's with manual gear and hydraulic flaps.  So outside of the engine and avionics, the cost of ownership and repair for the other items is not too bad.

I concur with all above. I wish this had ALL the avionics I want but that would have been quite difficult to find in this market. I was happy that this had two decent KX155 radios, a GTN 625 and JPI EDM 900. It has a hard mount with power and external antennae for my Stratus 3, and an airgizmos ipad mini panel mount which is pretty cool.I want to put in a couple G5s or GI275s (havent decided which is best for my mission yet and need to get solid pricing) and eventually an autopilot. 

First order of business is to change the airgizmos panel mount insert from the ipad mini 1-3 to the 4-5. You’d think the external screws would provide access but nope. Have to get behind the panel to reach the lock nuts. Nothing is ever easy. 

 

Tim