Aviation Fuel--It took me by surprise, but where I live shouldn't have

[aviatoreb]

19 hours ago, EricJ said:

Yeah, there were good reasons that lead got banned from general gasoline use.    Once in the atmosphere it was pretty much coating the entire planet, and it's seriously toxic.   Got pulled out of house paint, too, and a bunch of other things for the same reasons.

Getting it out of avgas is way overdue.   Obviously it's still gonna take some time, but the forces pushing in that direction are increasing.

 

Yeah - lead in paint is particularly bad news since paint tends to chip when it gets old and little children - like 2 or 3 year olds tend to put things on the ground in their mouths, which is very sad when it comes to lead.

There are lots of lead pipes in the usa.

I was at Pompeii 3 years ago and one thing I learned is that not only did the ancient romans use lead in all sorts of things, as pipes, and even as an additive to wine since they liked the way it adjusted the flavor, but they already had an idea that it was very and for them.  Deliberately adding lead to wine when you know its bad sounds barbaric, but then I was guessing they see it in similar terms to the fact that people smoke knowing it is bad for them, or many/most of it eat some really and chemicals in our processed foods knowing that some of it is pretty ill suited for long term consumption.  

Edited December 21, 2021 by aviatoreb

[jaylw314]

24 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yeah - lead in paint is particularly bad news since paint tends to chip when it gets old and little children - like 2 or 3 year olds tend to put things on the ground in their mouths, which is very sad when it comes to lead.

There are lots of lead pipes in the usa.

I was at Pompeii 3 years ago and one thing I learned is that not only did the ancient romans use lead in all sorts of things, as pipes, and even as an additive to wine since they liked the way it adjusted the flavor, but they already had an idea that it was very and for them.  Deliberately adding lead to wine when you know its bad sounds barbaric, but then I was guessing they see it in similar terms to the fact that people smoke knowing it is bad for them, or many/most of it eat some really and chemicals in our processed foods knowing that some of it is pretty ill suited for long term consumption.  

Lead salts are strangely sweet, which is of particular concern for poisoning in children and Romans.  I'm not sure how much of the Roman connection is apocryphal, though, I've heard something similar about copper

[GeeBee]

I guarantee you in 10 years we will start to see lithium poisoning problems. It will as ubiquitous in the environment as lead, maybe more so.

 

 

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I guarantee you in 10 years we will start to see lithium poisoning problems. It will as ubiquitous in the environment as lead, maybe more so.

 

 

I don't know.  Is the lithium processing releasing a lot of lithium into the atmosphere, waters or elsewhere?  When all the cars burned lead, there was a lot of lead being systematically released into the air.  Lead in pipes is bad news.  But aren't lithium batteries sealed?  How are they being disposed of?  I am making no assertions here.  Just questions.

[philip_g]

28 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I don't know.  Is the lithium processing releasing a lot of lithium into the atmosphere, waters or elsewhere?  When all the cars burned lead, there was a lot of lead being systematically released into the air.  Lead in pipes is bad news.  But aren't lithium batteries sealed?  How are they being disposed of?  I am making no assertions here.  Just questions.

I don't even know how lithium is mined. Is it hard Rock mining where they crush the rocks to get at it or...? 

[jaylw314]

43 minutes ago, philip_g said:

I don't even know how lithium is mined. Is it hard Rock mining where they crush the rocks to get at it or...? 

Lithium is VERY common in the environment, and AFAIK there are known safe limits.  To put it in perspective, mineral waters often have plenty of lithium in them, and the word lithium comes from the root lithos for "rock".  Heck, there's actually a Lithia Springs Mineral Water from Georgia, which surprised me because I always though it came from the town of Lithia Springs in Oregon.  It has advertised 0.5 mg/L of lithium.  Heck, lithium is still commonly used as a medication, with typical lifetime dosages of 900-1200 mg daily, although that's where (non-life threatening) side effects seem to start.

The cobalt and rare-earth metals specifically for battery manufacturing, though, can be a whole other problem, so I suspect if there's an industrial problem we'll see from mass battery production, it'll be related to something like that.  On the other hand, those materials are valuable enough that at some point, they will be valuable enough to recover or, at least, not waste.  Whether that happens before or after environmental contamination occurs is always a source of policy debate...

Edited December 21, 2021 by jaylw314

[GeeBee]

You don't understand. It won't matter. At the propellant of all environmental issues is anti-capitalism. If water was suddenly able to power our world, water would become a problem. Do you remember why we went to unleaded Mogas? Catalytic converters. We were told all we would emit is CO2 and water vapor. Now Co2 is a problem. You're playing a rigged game. 

 

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

You don't understand. It won't matter. At the propellant of all environmental issues is anti-capitalism. If water was suddenly able to power our world, water would become a problem. You're playing a rigged game. 

 

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

 At the propellant of all environmental issues is anti-capitalism. 

Now that’s funny!   

[steingar]

We've been trying to wean ourselves off fossil fuels since the 70's with little luck.  I don't really see things getting better in my lifetime.  Just glad I won't live to see Peak Oil.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Just glad I won't live to see Peak Oil.

Maybe it is happening now?

https://www.ogj.com/general-interest/economics-markets/article/14213072/morgan-stanley-global-oil-supply-likely-to-peak-earlier-than-demand

From the article:

"oil prices will likely search for the level where some demand erosion kicks in."

Edited December 22, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[GeeBee]

There will never be “peak oil”. The uses for petroleum products is constantly expanding and the methods to extract oil improve daily. Oil is the “ultimate renewable” as the earth is constanantly making more of it through heat and pressure. The idea that it comes from fossils is incorrect. 
The absurdity of this was brought home by a recent Tweet from the CEO of Patagonia who disparaged oil….except almost their entire catalog is apparel using synthetic fiber from…oil. 
It is one of the reasons I invest in Exxon/Mobil, because their derivative products and lubricants are the best in the business and that is not going away. 

[N201MKTurbo]

35 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

There will never be “peak oil”. The uses for petroleum products is constantly expanding and the methods to extract oil improve daily. Oil is the “ultimate renewable” as the earth is constanantly making more of it through heat and pressure. The idea that it comes from fossils is incorrect. 
The absurdity of this was brought home by a recent Tweet from the CEO of Patagonia who disparaged oil….except almost their entire catalog is apparel using synthetic fiber from…oil. 
It is one of the reasons I invest in Exxon/Mobil, because their derivative products and lubricants are the best in the business and that is not going away. 

Time will tell. There are a lot of opinions on that.