Low time pilot - intimidated by Mooney

[Hank]

P.S.-- @rbp, read the paragraph, too. "Degree of flap deflection required will vary according to landing conditions." That also does not mean "Flaps--full down."

[rbp]

15 minutes ago, Hank said:

P.S.-- @rbp, read the paragraph, too. "Degree of flap deflection required will vary according to landing conditions." That also does not mean "Flaps--full down."

excellent point. what "landing conditions" are preventing you from using full flaps? 

To be fair, you're welcome to use as much or as little flaps as you like. I'm just curious as to your rationale.

Here are 4 reasons not to use flaps:
https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/lists/2022/03/4-reasons-you-might-not-use-full-flaps-landing/#:~:text=The lower your airspeed is,make the perfect crosswind landing.

1. flap failure
2. Icing conditions
3. Strong crosswind : Lower airspeed = less airflow = less controllability
4. Instrument approach (stable approach)

#3 is good practice for aircraft which have small rudders or where the main wing blankets the tail in the flair, neither is true for the Mooney

Here's a couple more good articles by professional pilots and instructors:
 

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/landing-flaps-full-partial-or-none/

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/crosswind_landings_flaps/

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Mooney pilots that use partial flaps during landing, often…

1) like the controlled slowing, for nice, easy touch down…

2) T/O trim and landing trim are near identical in this arrangement…

 

3) Full flap landings require a touch more finesse to get right…

4) high wind, cross wind, landings…

 

Of course…

Full flap landings allow for better…

4) Stall speeds…

5) lower landing speeds…

6) better air brakes…

 

Long bodies weigh significantly more…  so… partial flap landings are probably less common…

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFII…

Best regards,

-a-

[rbp]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

1) like the controlled slowing, for nice, easy touch down…

2) T/O trim and landing trim are near identical in this arrangement…

3) Full flap landings require a touch more finesse to get right…

4) high wind, cross wind, landings…

1. surely a 5kt/mp lower speed touchdown is an easier 

2. why does this matter? trim, trim, trim

3. i guess might help if one is inexperienced

4. only true for airplanes with light wing loading, small rudders, or if the main wing blankets the tail. ie. not a Mooney

[Hank]

I generally use less flaps when: winds are strong or gusty; significant crosswind component; lightly loaded; I'm low or slow.

I generally use more flaps when winds are calm; I'm high or fast; heavy.

My Owners Manual posted above says "Extend flaps as required on final approach to adjust for variations in wind, glide angle and other variations." I still remember my first landing at Big Sandy Regional between Paintsville and Pikeville in eastern KY. Less than  a thousand feet at each end sloped gently in the same direction, while the middle 3000 or so feet sloped ~4° the same way. I thought I was never gonna touch down, floating along in ground effect 3' above the concrete as it continued to fall away beneath me. After that, I lowered additional flaps on final when stopping there, but used reduced flaps when landing uphill.

I'm sure there are other reasons to use more or less flap on landing, but these popped into my head tonight first. And no, adjusting flaps isn't the only control change I make in these situations. 

P.S--"less flaps" is NOT "no flaps;" "more flaps" is not necessarily "full flaps."  UT either could be, depending on how things go for a particular landing. Is the runway obstructed? More. Is it really short? More. Are the winds strong? Less. My flaps are nicely behaved, and move up and down as long as I hold my finger on the switch, right up until the hit the limit switch.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Hank

[rbp]

33 minutes ago, Hank said:

I generally use less flaps when: winds are strong or gusty; significant crosswind component; lightly loaded; I'm low or slow.

I generally use more flaps when winds are calm; I'm high or fast; heavy.

I appreciate what you’re saying here. 
 

the question is why? 

especially in the low and slow situation, when you would want to lower the stall speed and increase lift. 

[Andy95W]

48 minutes ago, rbp said:

I appreciate what you’re saying here. 
 

the question is why? 

especially in the low and slow situation, when you would want to lower the stall speed and increase lift. 

Because that’s his choice.

We all get your point(s).  We agree they’re valid.  Hank has valid points as well. He explained them.

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, rbp said:

1. surely a 5kt/mp lower speed touchdown is an easier 

2. why does this matter? trim, trim, trim

3. i guess might help if one is inexperienced

4. only true for airplanes with light wing loading, small rudders, or if the main wing blankets the tail. ie. not a Mooney

I think you might be arguing with people’s opinions… 

You asked…

3 hours ago, rbp said:

what "landing conditions" are preventing you from using full flaps? 

To be fair, you're welcome to use as much or as little flaps as you like. I'm just curious as to your rationale.

 

I supplied some reasons people use less than full flap around here….

I fly a long Body, and stick as close to POH procedures as I can…

 

We can always discuss these further…

Inexperience probably isn’t going to be a reason for their selections…

Best regards,

 -a-

[rbp]

imagine if we had a database of all the landing and rollout accidents, and that someone had analyzed it and found out that more accidents happen with partial flaps than full and that aircraft whose POHs say "full flaps" have the fewest landing and rollout accidents

[Hank]

22 minutes ago, rbp said:

imagine if we had a database of all the landing and rollout accidents, and that someone had analyzed it and found out that more accidents happen with partial flaps than full and that aircraft whose POHs say "full flaps" have the fewest landing and rollout accidents

And imagine if we found that pilots who follow the instructions in their Owners Manual had fewer landing accidents than those who followed the POHs for other airplanes. 

[carusoam]

Imagine if we had decent POHs for airplanes dating back to 1958…. 
 

The owners manual of a 1965 Mooney M20C wastes a page on welcoming us to ownership and congratulating us on the fine choice we made…

The whole document is about 35 pages…

Move ahead one decade or so… The 1977 M20C got something closer to a standard POH… but only about 100 pages long…

 

Then imagine if we trained to the standards of the POH….

 

Expect that the cost of transition training would get pretty excessive as well…

 

Somewhere in there is a limit of personal freedom, and personal safety….

Imagine if somebody told everybody else… that the POH of a 1977 M20C can be used for a 1965 M20C… (something I was told by the guy who signed my plane’s AW line in its log, 35 years later, -Bill Wheat)

Other oddities…

Back in the day… somebody put a fuel injection system on an M20C… now it is an M20E… requiring a whole new POH… for 20 more HP…

Adding 30hp to an M20R… is an STC… a few pages added to the POH…. Its name got changed to the less familiar Standing Ovation.

Expect if we train to the POH for each model we fly… a nice idea, but somebody would have to pay for it… 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[rbp]

We definitely have the personal freedom to land at a higher airspeed than required! 

[PT20J]

Ah, Flaps. It's good to think about why they are there: 1) flaps result in a more nose down attitude, 2) flaps reduce stalling speed allowing a lower touchdown speed, 3) flaps add drag and allow a steeper approach. 

A lot of pilots think Mooney flaps are not very effective. But they are. Mooney flaps cover a lot of the wingspan and change the effective camber on more of the wing than say Cessna or Piper flaps. This makes them very effective in lowering the nose and reducing the stall speed. If you compare Vso and Vs1 for Mooneys and other similar airplanes (I've posted comparisons before), you'll find that the Mooney flaps have a wider spread than most. But, the Mooney flaps are not the best drag producers which is probably why some pilots that are more used to Cessnas and the like think they don't do much. And that's probably one reason why speed brakes are popular on Mooneys.

A Cessna 172 with 40 degrees of flaps is a handful in a gusty crosswind due to the drag, but a Mooney with 33 degrees of flaps is not nearly as bad. However the fact that flaps lower the nose means that it is necessary to rotate the nose through a greater pitch angle during the flare to get to the proper landing attitude and this makes the flare a trickier maneuver to get right especially since the short landing gear puts the Mooney wing deep in ground effect. Everyone knows that ground effect reduces drag, but it also increases lift and causes a pitch down moment -- so it works against you in the landing maneuver. It's going to be "easier" to land with less flaps at the expense of a higher touchdown speed and necessarily more runway.

Skip

[rbp]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

A Cessna 172 with 40 degrees of flaps is a handful in a gusty crosswind due to the drag

Also the high wing and the low tail blankets the rudder and elevator

 

[carusoam]

Is there a placard for using full flaps and crossed controls for the Bravo?

There is a reason all of the Long Bodies got speed brakes…

And that includes blanketing of the tail… and the following tail stall…

Fuzzy PP memories… I would have to look that one up…

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

There are some design elements of the Mooney elevator control system that affect landing.

Consider the C-152/C-172 that many of us learned in. The yoke is directly connected to the elevator with no weights or springs as is easily noted by moving the elevator up and down. It moves freely.

Now grab the elevator of a M20A-J and notice that there are springs opposing your movement of the elevator (later models have a different mechanism with a bobweight and spring). These springs are the trim assist bungees. They provide two functions: 1) they add a bias to the stick free elevator position depending on the trim setting to reduce the amount of horizontal stabilizer incidence change required to trim the airplane throughout it's operating envelope, and 2) they act as centering springs on the elevator control system.

In your C-152/C-172, all the elevator stick force you feel when you pull or push on the yoke is due to aerodynamic forces on the elevators. At cruise the elevator forces feel rather stiff and when you slow down to approach speed the forces lighten considerably. 

In the Mooney, the elevator stick force is a combination of aerodynamic forces on the elevators and the tension of the springs. At cruise speeds where elevator deflections are small, the springs don't have much effect assuming the airplane is in trim. But at low speeds, the springs have a lot more effect because the elevator deflection is necessarily greater to achieve the same pitch moment. Centering springs are one way to augment the low speed stability when the elevator forces would otherwise be too low making it easy to overcontrol and difficult to trim. Because of these springs, the Mooney can have rather high stick forces when out of trim and, of course, you are out of trim during the landing flare.

One other interesting aspect of the Mooney elevators is that they are underbalanced meaning that the CG is aft of the hinge line. Most control surfaces are overbalanced as a means to prevent flutter. Who knows why Mooney underbalanced them, but Ed Kolano pointed out to me that the effect would be to momentarily lighten the control forces during a transient pitch up or down making the airplane more responsive.

Skip

 

[rbp]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

And imagine if we found that pilots who follow the instructions in their Owners Manual had fewer landing accidents than those who followed the POHs for other airplanes. 

Disingenuous

[Hank]

1 hour ago, rbp said:

Disingenuous

Merely the second of three options:

1.  Always landing with full flaps, regardless of conditions, has fewer runway issues;

2.  Using flaps as one of several adjustments on landing has fewer runway issues;

3. There is no statistical difference between the two groups.

I suspect there is no data on thus, so no way to suggest which outcome is more likely. Yet you did. I am simply pointing out that you have no data and that there are other equally likely possibilities. 

[rbp]

14 minutes ago, Hank said:

Merely the second of three options:

1.  Always landing with full flaps, regardless of conditions, has fewer runway issues;

2.  Using flaps as one of several adjustments on landing has fewer runway issues;

3. There is no statistical difference between the two groups.

I suspect there is no data on thus, so no way to suggest which outcome is more likely. Yet you did. I am simply pointing out that you have no data and that there are other equally likely possibilities. 

its disingenuous because I never suggested that you not follow the instructions in the POH

and you obviously didn’t read the article I posted, which is also disingenuous because you've already made up your mind. "Aeronautical decision making provides a systematic approach to the mental processes used by pilots to consistently determine the best course of action in response to a given set of circumstances. In other words, ADM is what pilots intend to do based on the latest information they have."

>>My opinion on the subject began to form during some days of research when I was flight instructing in college. I got interested in landing accidents, read a boatload of accident reports and found that where flap deflection on landing was recorded, the landing accident rate seemed to be inversely proportional to the percentage of available flap being used. That is, the more flap deflection used, the fewer the number of accidents.

 

 

[Andy95W]

“Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”    

- Obi-wan Kenobi

I wonder, does that mean that Darth Maul always lands with full flaps?  Or no flaps?

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

“Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”    

- Obi-wan Kenobi

I wonder, does that mean that Darth Maul always lands with full flaps?  Or no flaps?

What? You don't always respond the same way, regardless of what's happening?  

[steingar]

I can't believe there's a club that can afford the insurance on a Mooney.  The ones here can't.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I prefer to land with half flaps because in the case of a go around Or touch and go I am in a better position than if I have full flaps.  Keep in mind I have hydraulic flaps which complicates going from full to take off flaps.  I often do no flap, half flap and full flap landings - good to keep your options open for any potential situation.  
 

I wonder if individuals who always do full flap landings have more accidents when performing go arounds? Fortunately the FAA has fixed this issue by making go arounds illegal.  

 

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I wonder if individuals who always do full flap landings have more accidents when performing go arounds? Fortunately the FAA has fixed this issue by making go arounds illegal. 

Do what??? That's one of the craziest concepts that I've heard of, even further out than "vegan leather"!!

[Utah20Gflyer]

Im referring to the Trent Palmer case and some very concerning case law being created.